|Hannah Graham Missing|
Missing Realtor Found Dead After Showing Home; Vicious Crime Videotaped and Put Online; DNA Evidence Can Link Several Crimes against Young Women in Virginia
Aired September 30, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, a missing realtor, her body found in a shallow grave.
CALLER: Hey, I`m over here. They`re looking for a guy here that was involved in the realtor being kidnapped. This guy looks like him. And he
is nervous and he`s out here at a bus stop.
PINSKY: The suspect`s message to her family -- sorry.
Plus, Snapchat rape? Who would record an attack and then post to it an app. That`s what the behavior bureau would like to know.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening. I`m with my co-host Samantha Schacher.
And coming up, is the Hannah Graham case closer to being solved, Sam?
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: And that suspect in custody is charged with abduction and now linked to other missing girl cases. Do we have a serial
killer on our hands?
PINSKY: First up, though, the search for missing realtor, Beverly Carter, ended earlier this morning. Her body is discovered in a shallow grave.
Police say the killer is a 33-year-old Arron Lewis. Take a look.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
TIPSTER: Hey, I`m sitting over here. They`re looking for a guy here that was involved in the realtor being kidnapped. And this guy looks like him,
and he is nervous.
REALTOR`S SON: As parents, we have so much fear that someone will take our kids. But you never think in a million years, someone will take your mom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The changing of the hashtag says it all. From #FindBeverly to #RememberBeverly. The body of missing realtor Beverly
Carter found in a shallow grave about 25 miles north of Little Rock. The 33-year-old Arron Lewis admitted to kidnapping her but would not tell
police where she was.
REPORTER: Why Beverly?
SUSPECT: Because she was just a woman who worked alone, a rich broker.
REPORTER: Did you kill her?
PINSKY: Joining us, Karamo Brown, host of #OWNShow on Oprah.com, Anahita Sedaghatfar from AnahitaLaw.com, Heather McDonald, comedian, special is "I
Don`t Mean to Brag" currently on Showtime.
Sam, is this guy the only suspect or did he implicate somebody else tonight here?
SCHACHER: Yes, that`s right, Dr. Drew. During the perp walk, he said that there was another guy involved. And he named him. So, police questioned
the guy and they did release him.
And they said that the only one involved, the only one who`s being charged with murder is Lewis. However, we still don`t know a motive. And during
today`s news conference, the police would not answer those questions.
PINSKY: Apparently not a lot known about him. He worked for a cement company two months ago, but he was fired. We don`t know why. He is a
parolee with a rap sheet that includes this current capital murder charge.
Police hit him with a careless driving count. His past includes theft charges, obstruction.
Anahita, this guy, what you`re seeing there with the bloody face is because he was driving erratically and I guess crashed his car and that`s where the
police found him, right?
SEDAGHATFAR: Right. And, you know, it`s hard to say what his defense really is going to be because we don`t have all of the evidence yet. But,
Dr. Drew, I was reading some of the social media comments on this story and once again, so many people are attacking his defense lawyer and they`re
PINSKY: Oh, can you imagine that? Why blame the defense lawyer for defending a scum bag like this? I mean, alleged scum bag. Excuse me,
maybe a scum bag.
SEDAGHATFAR: Thank you. You`re learning, Dr. Drew.
Btu he said his attorney made him plead not guilty to this case, that he wanted to plead guilty.
But guess what? The defense lawyer has to protect his client. It is his job to get the best deal for him. So, of course, he`s going to make him
plead not guilty. Maybe he is insane. Maybe he`s not confident. We don`t know if he`s had a mental examination.
PINSKY: All right. Of course you have to get me right there, Anahita. Way to go.
Heather, you were a realtor. Can you imagine you`re showing somebody an empty house and the guy does God knows what to you?
HEATHER MCDONALD, COMEDIAN: Well, the thing is, is that, as a realtor, you are always living in fear as a woman like that.
PINSKY: Is that true?
MCDONALD: Yes. The thing I was thinking about this particular woman, she was older. She was probably a realtor for many years. Because she was
successful and never had any problems, she probably, you know, had her guard down. But new realtors, especially women, are taught. At least when
I was a realtor, if I was to ever show to a property to a stranger, they would say, have them meet you in the office. Get a copy of their license.
Make sure he meet somebody else, and then go to the property.
And sometimes I would do it, and sometimes it`d be like, yes, OK. Meet me there. It seems okay. That`s what`s really scary.
PINSKY: Anything weird ever happened?
MCDONALD: I would get weird calls, like, you know, where clearly the person wasn`t interested in the house. I would kind of feel it out. One
of the thing I would do, have you met with a mortgage broker and have you been pre-approved? And then, that`s usually when they feel, oh, never
mind. I`m not interested in the house. They didn`t have the money. So I wouldn`t want to waste time with them.
But it`s a very unsafe job for anybody, especially females. Sometime you`re on an open house with signs leading strangers to go greet you on the
top of the --
PINSKY: Pictures of you on the sign with an empty house, maybe up a driveway.
Samantha, you want to say something?
SCHACHER: Yes. To Heather`s appointment, my husband and I go to open houses almost every weekend, even though we`re not looking to buy.
PINSKY: That`s weird, Sam.
SCHACHER: Very exciting lives we lead.
My point is we ended up talking recently to two women showing a house. We got in a conversation. I asked they will if they were partners and the
woman revealed she and this other realtor developed a buddy system even though they weren`t partners, because neither of them felt safe showing
And that speaks volumes to how vulnerable we feel as women, the state of our society. And it`s a really scary real.
PINSKY: All right. Karamo, I want to play another short clip from 911 call. And you tell me, should we be going for the death penalty with this
guy? Listen to this first.
KARAMO BROWN, #OWNSHOW: Sure.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
TIPSTER: OK, now, I had a guy walk out there, walked, walked, talked to him, just went out there to see and they said that they think it`s him.
DISPATCHER: OK, don`t tip him off or anything.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: It`s all premeditated, it seems. What do you think, Karamo?
BROWN: Throw book at this scum bag. That`s what I think.
I don`t care about what his defense attorney is doing. This man had no remorseful you can see every time he said he`s sorry and I feel so sad for
this woman`s family. The fact that her grandchildren are not going to be able to see her. She`s not going to be able to hold them.
Throw the book at him, he is disgusting. And I also want to remind women that we have to stop being so complacent that you forget there are a lot of
scum bags in the world like this.
PINSKY: Alleged scum bags. How dare you?
BROWN: Alleged scum bag. Alleged to you. In my book, you know what? He`s a scum bags.
SEDAGHATFAR: But he`s saying he didn`t kill her. He`s saying, yes, I kidnapped her.
SCHACHER: So, who killed her?
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, here`s the thing, that`s not a defense, because he can still be held liable under felony murder. If they prove if he was part of
the kidnapping, if that`s really true, and somebody else is co-defendant or co-conspirator killed her, he will still be liable. I think he needs to
get evaluated, he doesn`t seem like he has --
PINSKY: We have this conversation all the time. We have a bunch of stories. We`re going to try to decide if somebody is an evil person or
they`re a sick person. At a certain point, they overlap if this guy did what he did, I don`t care what the mental health situation. It`s too late,
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, the law cares. I mean, it matters. Of course, if he was insane at the time, if he didn`t know the difference between right or
PINSKY: Who`s going to be able to prove that? The woman is dead.
SEDAGHATFAR: Doctors hike you.
PINSKY: Sorry, counselor, but I would never be your witness on this one.
BROWN: Anahita, this man is sick. It`s a clear case. He admitted to it. He even said that he wanted to plead guilty. The fact that he also --
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, he denied it actually. He denied that he kill her. He said I did kidnap her, but I didn`t hear about her for two days. So --
BROWN: Anahita, that doesn`t matter. The man killed this woman. He is disgusting and I them to book is thrown at him and I hope this sends a
clear message to women to protect each other.
PINSKY: All right. Next up, we have an exclusive with one of the victims` friends and neighbors.
And later, the man accused of kidnapping Hannah Graham. Could he have been involved in similar crimes? We`ll get into that after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Beverly Carter, missing real estate agent, Arron Lewis admitted to kidnapping her. Wouldn`t tell police where he was. Now, he
faces capital murder charges.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are not seeking any other suspects.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s fear. They have a right to be fearful. I don`t want them to be so scared they can`t do their job.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`ve all got heavy hearts right now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Friend says realtors are discouraged from meeting people alone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`ve done it this long and nothing has happened sometimes. You just feel like you`re invincible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I am back with Sam and our behavior bureau. Jena Kravitz, clinical psychologist, Wendy Walsh, psychologist, author of "The 30-Day
Love Detox", and Spirit, host of "The Daily Helpline".
Sam, there is a story about Arron Lewis trying to date someone. Tell me about that.
SCHACHER: Oh, yes. Boy, did she dodge a bullet.
So, a woman who I guess lived right next door to his mother said he pursued her, Arron Lewis, as a love interest. She said they talked on the phone.
They texted. And she cut off all communication because she said he became quote, "clingy, obsessed and psycho."
PINSKY: OK. So, she had an instinct that something was up with this guy.
And, Spirit, as Sam said, she did dodge a bullet.
I guess I`ll start with Jena, first.
I want to ask you -- is this guy sick? Is there a mental illness or have we crossed into something more in the psychopathic realm where we got an
evil person here or both?
JENA KRAVITZ, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Oh, Dr. Drew, an evil person does not exist. There are no Dexters in the world. Psychopathology like this comes
from accommodation of genetics and psychological factors and social factors. This is clearly a sick individual.
PINSKY: Well, Jena, I`m going to slow you down. Because while I understand what you`re talking about, what he has, has a name is what
you`re saying, right? You could measure it in one of your fancy neuro psych tests.
SCHACHER: I can call him evil, though, right?
KRAVITZ: You may call him that.
PINSKY: But when people are talking about evil, they talk about people that are doing horrible things, that have no empathy, and no remorse, and
can`t be changed, right? Will we all agree that`s evil?
KRAVITZ: Yes, and that`s called an anti-social personality disorder. We have evidence he is on that track.
PINSKY: Right. And people argue about whether psychopathy and antisocial are just gradations of the same thing. Spirit, what do you say?
SPIRIT, DAILY HELPLINE: I`m saying, listen. Until he has that diagnosis, he is an evil sinister person. Period, period, period. It is so
unfortunate what happened to this woman.
And we have to use this as an example to say to ourselves, I have to stop myself from being a victim. Whatever I have to do to make sure that I am
safe, I need to do that. It is a sad, sad, sad story but I hope it will change the way some people are doing their professions.
PINSKY: And, Wendy, I want to hear from you, too. And, Wendy, you get what I`m getting at. People get very frustrated with us clinicians when we
label things and they think we`re excusing behavior. We`re just trying to understand it more than excuse it. I always say, you tell me if I`m off or
not on this.
That whatever the label is, we give this, once it goes to a certain point it is up to the justice system at that point.
WENDY WALSH, PYSCHOLOGIST: Yes. I think the question is, whether this person is evil or whether there is a diagnosis is not important.
Obviously, his behavior was evil enough that now he ends up in the legal system. Not in a mental health ward where he is getting care and there
will be the consequences for him.
PINSKY: Well --
WALSH: And, you know, there is another thing I heard when Sam was saying about the sort of, the potential lover and the stalking and she called him
a psycho. Now, I hear attachment stuff going on. Now I hear somebody who is clingy and wanting love and wanting attachment.
And maybe something went wrong in the thing with this realtor. Maybe she was showing the house and there was something that triggered something in
him, even something maternal and wanting love and wanting attachment. Maybe she kind of dismissed him in some way that put him into a rage.
PINSKY: Sam, you look like this is freaking you out a little bit. Let me get to Sam. Tell me what that is.
SCHACHER: I just can`t imagine. When I go into my home at night and I unlock the door. I always look behind my shoulder. And I can`t imagine
being a female realtor and being in an unlocked open home. I would feel so vulnerable.
I agree with Spirit -- sinister, evil. But instead of saying, period, period, period, I want to say exclamation mark, exclamation mark,
PINSKY: Spirit, go. What do you want to say?
SPIRIT: You know, I was just saying. We have to stop as clinicians as well. I get the whole diagnosing and wanting to understand. But this is
part of the reason why the general society at large hates us, because we always make excuses for behavior.
WALSH: It`s not making excuses though.
PINSKY: An explanation is not excuse, though, yes.
SPIRIT: This man, regardless of what he may be diagnosed with now after the fact, is a grown man who has figured out how to live in our society
until this appointment just fine. So, now, as all these women come out of the woodwork and talk about how they dodged a bullet, no one said anything
about him before this murder. No one said anything to get him the help that he needed.
PINSKY: Interesting point. Let me get -- I want to turn to now, Jane Carfagno. She was a friend and co-worker of Beverly Carter.
And, Jane, first of all, thank you for joining us. And everyone here at our show gives our sincerest condolences to you and to everyone in the
community there and Beverly`s family. You were actually texting with her the night of the murder.
Can you tell us what you observed?
JANE CARFAGNO, FRIEND AND COWORKER (via telephone): Well, actually, I had locked myself, I was showing her listing and I had locked my keys in the
house. We have a key fob and then we use our phones and we have several other things we`re carrying and sometime it`s a little complicated.
PINSKY: Jane, can I interrupt you? Is this the very house that she was abducted from?
CARFAGNO: No, no. Beverly was showing another house. I was showing Beverly`s listing.
PINSKY: Got it.
CARFAGNO: So I called her and she didn`t answer. I call her back again after that. She sent a text back that said, "With a client. Call you in a
And so I texted her back and said, I`m showing your listing. And I gave the location. And I said, I`m locked out and the buyers have left the
property. Is there any way, are you in the area? Much to my dismay, that I texted back.
And then she texted me back and said in Roanoke. Them I texted her back and said if there was a possibly a key hidden and she texted back and said,
PINSKY: Sam, do you have a question too?
SCHACHER: I do. Jane, did I hear correctly that you live in a really small community? Is that true and if so, do you know had a this guy is?
Are you familiar with him at all?
CARFAGNO: Not at all.
SCHACHER: Do you now fear when you go out yourself, and show houses, do you have a buddy system? Or has this changed your practices at all?
CARFAGNO: It has certainly -- yes. It is going to change the way I do business. I know it is going to change the way our office does business.
And hopefully maybe from a national level, it will change the real estate industry overall.
PINSKY: Can you tell me how her family is doing?
CARFAGNO: We have -- I have not scene her family. A few people went over this morning. But we are letting them have some privacy.
PINSKY: Yes, if you do, please, I mean, the country is praying for them, I`m sure. We just -- this is such a tragedy. What a shocking turn of
events, you know. One day, your mom is showing a house and the next day she disappeared.
WALSH: Dr. Drew, the interesting thing about those texts is that it seemed so normal. In other words, so she`s with this client who turns out to be
her murderer and there is nothing strange or weird. So, she is not getting any red flags, which tells me he is more sociopathic. In other words, he
probably could behave like a normal client for a while.
PINSKY: And could be cold-blooded. And then as I understand it, all of a sudden, he starts answering the text. The husband starts texting her
later, and he is the one who seems allegedly is answering.
Thank you, guys.
Next up, was a rape posted to Snapchat?
And later, is the suspect in the Hannah Graham case a serial kidnapper?
We`ll look at that after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Rashad Dahim (ph) shook his head no as prosecutors described his alleged in the rape of a 16-year-old female acquaintance.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It appeared that the victim was attempting to fight off her assailants.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dahim and his girlfriend 18-year-old Calen Beneya (ph), are charged with kidnapping the girl, taking her behind the Saugus
(ph) School where prosecutors say the teens sexually assaulted her. Took numerous videos of the attack and posted them to Snapchat.
According to police reports, the victim doesn`t remember the attack. She claims Dahim and the others drugged her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In one of the videos, the victim is seemingly held up by her assailants because she could not stand up on her own.
UNIDENTIIFED FEMALE: A friend of the victim alerted police after those Snapchats video turned up on her mobile phone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Karamo, Anahita and Heather.
It is our most tweeted story of the day. It is stunning. A third teenage suspect is believed to have recorded and then posted videos of this alleged
sexual assault to Snapchat. Then she took screen shots of her Snapchats. Police say that gentleman you saw, sent them to a female acquaintance.
Gentleman used loosely.
She was able to do the screen grab images and show those to her father and he called the cops.
Sam, the alleged victim who was 16 was really sick medically when she got to the hospital. What do you know?
SCHACHER: So sad, Dr. Drew.
So, according to this court documents, police found her in a wooded area behind an elementary school. She was nude from the waist down. The
alleged victim`s mother told a local reporter that her daughter was barely breathing and her body was, quote, "ripped and shredded." According to law
enforcement videos with hospital staff, quote, "She was heavily inebriated and possibly on some kind of narcotic, could not speak. She was foaming at
the mouth and it appeared she had several abrasions covering her entire body. And hospital staff reportedly administered," here`s where I have a
question for you, Dr. Drew.
SCHACHER: Two doses of Narcan?
PINSKY: Narcan is an opioid reversing agent. So, she was on opiates. Painkillers, not necessarily heroin, maybe pill, particular opiate.
And I read the police report. It showed she had an aspiration pneumonia as well. Meaning, she was so out of the foaming of the mouth, you read about
there, that just the most posted, that her contents of her mouth or stomach went into her lungs and you can die in minutes from that pneumonia.
It is really lucky the police found her. In my opinion she would have been dead certainly within an hour if they had not gotten ahold of her.
This 19-year-old suspect in the tape coming in, and his teen accomplices face several charges. They include assault with intent to rape.
Kidnapping, indecent assault on a person age 14, exhibiting a child in a sexual act, and child pornography that he`s basically sending with the
Snapchat. What`s up with Snapchat?
Anahita, is there any defense for this?
SEDAGHATFAR: It`s going to be a tough defense. They`re probably going to all blame one another and say that they were just along for the ride. It`s
not going to be a good one.
But, Dr. Drew, you mentioned that police report. I`m not blaming anyone other than these three monsters that did this crime allegedly. But the
mother told the police that she dropped her daughter off, her 16-year-old, at school at night on a random Wednesday night. There were no activities,
no plays, no extracurricular sports, nothing.
And you really have to wonder, was that really good judgment for the mom to just drop her child off like that at school? She asked no questions. I
don`t know. I don`t know that that is that great --
PINSKY: Karamo, first.
BROWN: Ananita --
BROWN: You said that you`re only putting the blame on these three people. But then it sounded like you were victim-blaming. You`re blaming this
mother who was powerless in dropping off her kid. By no means, there`s a mother dropping off her child at the school mean that she`s at fault.
These children are seriously disturbed.
SEDAGHATFAR: You have to wonder whether or not that was good judgment. It`s a random Wednesday evening. It is after-hours.
She`s 16. Don`t you stop and say, are you meeting somebody here? Why are you going to the school? I mean, why not just ask a question. It`s not
blaming. It`s just questioning whether or not --
BROWN: Of course, a parent should question but you are blaming and victimizing this woman and saying that it was her fault for getting raped.
That`s what I`m hearing and it`s wrong.
SEDAGHATFAR: I didn`t say that.
PINSKY: Heather, what do you say?
MCDONALD: Well, I was just wondering and hearing this whole story. Maybe someone knows the answer.
So, did she not know these people? Was one of them her friends and she was saying I`m meeting my friend?
PINSKY: That`s what I can`t figure it out yet. My suspicion is there was some sort of collusion that went bad. They`re all from the same high
school, I imagine. They were all acquaintances, the control room is telling me.
SCHACHER: Yes, one of them was 19. So, I don`t think one of them was in high school. But I do think they were all acquaintances.
But how did the couple, the boyfriend, girlfriend, these two psychopaths find each other? They`re like two sick peas in a pod. And perhaps the
clinician or you will know, Dr. Drew, that answer when two, in my opinion, psychopaths find each other, do they magnify their evil impulses?
SEDAGHATFAR: That`s a good question.
PINSKY: Well, it is an interesting question. I`m sure there are cases like that. But more than anything, it is one comes under the sway of
another. The sociopath kind of sways people with very primitive trauma personality issues. Again, you can`t blame -- you know, I don`t want to
blame, the one that comes under the sway is an autonomous adult, a person, who has to be held accountable for her actions, but there`s usually one
bringing the other along.
Now, according to the police, the 18-year-old female suspect can be seen fondling the victim and trying to force her to give oral sex to one of the
other male suspects. Then, the suspects also used her -- one phone call that said she got booked, to warn her boyfriend, another alleged suspect,
of the arrest.
Heather, there does seem to be a lot of collusion going on here.
MCDONALD: Yeah, I mean it sounds like the three of them, this was something that they planned out. I mean they videotaped it and they sent
it. I can`t believe how ignorant these people are.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yeah, they were so cruel about it.
MCDONALD: And they just said that they would want everybody to know that they did this, they want their friends that are part of the Snapchat to see
that they did this disgusting thing like oh, yeah, we were able to kidnap this girl and rape her and videotape? I mean it`s insane.
PINSKY: Drug her and rape her and videotape her. Anahita, do you want to say something?
SEDAGHATFAR: You feel like they did this for that sole purpose.
PINSKY: Well, that`s my question. That`s what I want to know - some snap it.
SCHACKER: They`ve done - like this before.
PINSKY: Has a Snapchat - has Snapchat gone so insane that people are doing it? You know, Snapchat with kids. They pull some horrible stuff often
SEDAGHATFAR: Because it can disappear.
PINSKY: Are they trying to outdo one another?
SCHACKER: No, Dr. Drew, I don`t - OK.
SEDAGHATFAR: I think so.
SCHACKER: Listen, no, no, no. I don`t think this is people trying to outdo one another on Snapchat. This people, this disgusting couple, this
boyfriend - girlfriend, have a history. And they`ve also drug a woman by their car and then the girlfriend got out of the car. And then continued
to beat the girl.
PINSKY: Let me - let me.
SEDAGHATFAR: They probably posted that too. I wouldn`t be surprised.
PINSKY: Well, let me .
SCHACKER: They are psychopaths.
PINSKY: Let me report that story. So and the girlfriend , they are the suspects. They were charged with what Sam is talking about,
dragging a woman from a car and then beating her. The 20-year-old alleged victim at that time told police that she was then Deihim`s girlfriend.
Last summer, Deihim was also arraigned on two counts of cocaine possession and in 2013, this is new information we just got. You guys will love this.
He, this guy, was charged with assaulting his mother after he, she confronted him over finding a knife and brass knuckles in his belongings.
Chromo, this is according to "The Boston Herald." This is something that we are reporting from there. We don`t direct confirmation, but Karamo,
come on now.
BROWN: Year, no seriously. Dr. Drew, normally you would never hear me advocate for this because I work with troubled youth. But this time I have
to tell you, these children need - some type of juvenile detention, and they need help. These children are past their parents stepping in and
involving, getting involved in this process. These kids are on the path of doing psychopathic behavior.
BROWN: . if they`re not already doing psychopathic behavior.
PINSKY: It is pretty disgusting and ridiculous and they need to get locked up. I, you know, normally I hate to say throw away a child.
SCHACHER: Lock him up.
BROWN: But they need to get locked away and get helped.
SEDAGHATFAR: They need help, too.
PINSKY: Hold on, Heather.
MCDONALD: The 19-year-old is done. He has got to go to .
MCDONALD: Adult jail for 20 years.
BROWN: Grown up jail.
PINSKY: Grown up jail.
MCDONALD: Let`s not forget.
SCHACHER: Oh my god.
PINSKY: Anahita, you are not defending this guy. What if that`s your job, counselor? I don`t understand. I thought everyone deserves a defense.
Isn`t that what you taught me?
SEDAGHATFAR: He does. Yeah. He learned very well. He deserves the defense, but it`s going to be tough. This is all on tape.
PINSKY: All right.
SEDAGHATFAR: He is going to raise a mental illness defense. I think that`s ..
PINSKY: Great. That`s why people - the behavior bureau is right. That`s why they hate us to talk about this. Well, back, maybe would be here, and
later, hear from the parents of a missing girl. Is the daughter`s disappearance linked to the disappearance of the Hannah Graham case? Back
PINSKY: This 19-year-old is accused of kidnapping and attempting rape. He is in custody tonight. Thanks in part to the social media app Snapchat.
According to police, he and his girlfriend kidnapped and drugged a 16-year- old girl. Then tried to sexually assault her. Police say a 17-year-old accomplice videotaped the alleged attack and posted it on Snapchat. The
teen trio was busted when police apparently saw screen grabs of this disturbing video.
I`m back with Sam and our behavior bureau. Jena, Wendy and Spirit, according to court documents, the girl who initially had received the
Snapchat videos called the unnamed 17-year-old suspect right after she received the videos during the alleged sexual assault. She stated in part,
he could be heard laughing.
PINSKY: And when she talked to him he acted like it was no big deal. Jena, another one. Laughing during alleged attack.
KRAVITZ: Defiant. I read this and I was like, I thought Snapchat was for sending like topless selfies. I didn`t know it was for like capturing
KRAVITZ: But apparently it is. But you know, it is this defiant behavior. Destructive behavior. It is so worrisome. Because these people, if they
don`t learn their lesson now, later on we`re going to see a lot worse.
SCHACHER: Oh, my gosh. I`m sorry. I don`t see this as defiant behavior. I see this as a group of people who are essentially getting off on
inflicting pain on somebody and watching them suffer. To me, that shows somebody that has zero amount of empathy --
PINSKY: All that too. Yeah. For sure that. But it was just - it`s no big deal, sort of a guy going to find shrugging off of anybody trying to
make him realize he was harming somebody. Wendy.
WALSH: Dr. Drew, I don`t think they`re going to like learn their lesson. I think this is deep pathology. I mean this guy has got a track record
that is also not good, right, Sam?
WALSH: And he is - this is not like a first time thing. This guy is probably going to be the kind of guy who is a lifelong criminal. With that
lack of empathy at the tender age of 17.
PINSKY: Denny .
WALSH: And drugging her.
KRAVITZ: Even worse, actually, this guy is more dangerous than not. He has a long history of criminal behavior and assaults against women.
KRAVITZ: Like these are hard core attachment issues deep in his psyche. And in terms of learning lessons, you know, wasn`t there something that
came out about the father who turned in the phone. Am I on to something here?
PINSKY: Let me read this to you. The father of this alleged, allegedly shared the videos of Snapchat has also been arrested. So, this is somebody
else`s father. This is not this guy`s father. This guy is accused of misleading police by destroying his son`s phone.
PINSKY: So there is a lot of people. here is a lot of
WALSH: Well, wait a second. So his son had received the Snapchat?
WALSH: And his dad wanted to destroy - I mean I totally get that. I mean I`m a parent. My kid had nothing to do with that, right? So, the first
thing I would do, is go, let`s just get rid of any evidence around because it didn`t happen in our family.
PINSKY: Wait a minute, now - I bet you`re with me. I would drive my kid with the phone to the cops and go, you guys take over.
SPIRIT, TV HOST: Exactly. Exactly.
WALSH: He`s worried his kid would be incriminated.
SPIRIT: This is a problem. Forget that. He is an accomplice in a crime when you destroy evidence that length itself to a crime. You would destroy
it and say my kid is not a part of this? So somebody else has to suffer. This is the problem right here. We keep talking about the idea that it is
the children and they`re so sinister and they have all these disorders. No. It is adults who are not doing their job. How many court systems did
this kid interface with that everybody passed the buck and said we`ll let you off this time. Don`t do it again.
SPIRIT: Don`t do it again. Don`t do it again. This is escalation. Because there is no accountability for behavior. There is no consequence
taught that tells children, when you do the wrong thing as a child, there are consequences. And it escalates as an adult.
SPIRIT: And these people are failing these children. Come on.
PINSKY: Go, Sam.
SPIRIT: Come on, guys.
SCHACKER: Yes. OK, well, I also think that this is a great example of how our youth can be hyper vigilant and their eyes peeled on social media.
Because guess what - if that young eyewitness didn`t take those screen grabs of that Snapchat video, that girl would have died. Would have died.
PINSKY: Yes. We got .
SPIRIT: High five to her for speaking up.
PINSKY: Well, there`s and we all say, see something, do something. Particularly on social media.
SPIRIT: That`s right.
PINSKY: When kids I guess are getting finally better at interpreting what they`re seeing.
KRAVITZ: Do you know what I would say about the father who misled the police with this? I don`t blame him, you, guys, as a parent. I don`t know
that I would do that personally .
SPIRIT: Oh, my god.
KRAVITZ: Who is in papa bear mode? And he`s protecting his cub. He is a parent in crisis.
SPIRIT: And his son was innocent. It wasn`t his fault that he got that Snapchat. What lesson did he teach here?
KRAVITZ: You`re right.
SPIRIT: This child goes out and watches another crime. God forbid, somebody get robbed or murdered, this would be the kid who becomes the
adult that drives off.
WALSH: Absolutely. I agree.
SPIRIT: This would be the person that closes their window while someone is being attacked. Why are we celebrating this father like, oh, he is papa
bear mode. Good job.
KRAVITZ: Oh, no, no.
SPIRIT: No, dad, you underreacted here.
KRAVITZ: Yeah, I`m not supporting it and I don`t agree with him. As a parent I wouldn`t have done the same thing. I come from the Dr. Drew
school of parenting. I would have driven my children to the police and said this is what they`ve done, and they need to be held accountable. But
SPIRIT: Show them the phone, son. Show them the phone.
KRAVITZ: But I can understand why he did it.
WALSH: Dr. Drew School of Parenting, I love it.
PINSKY: And, you know what, I`m correcting -- yes. They are correcting me - that this father`s son had shared the Snapchat. He is not the one that
received the Snapchat.
WALSH: That`s a whole other thing.
PINSKY: Yeah, it is a different thing. Yeah. I misspoke. And so, my apologies. It`s - but it is an interesting conversation, nonetheless. And
a reminder. You know, Jenna kept talking about this sociopath. Psychopath, and, you know, real psychopaths are probably more genetically
born. There are certain areas of the brain that really are not firing normally. If you remember Dr. Fellow (ph) who we talked to because - time
to go - had functional MRIs of these kinds of brains. And they can be detected now and there seem to be a genetic link within. Of course,
environment has some influence as well.
Thank you, panel. Next up, Hannah Graham has been missing for almost three weeks. Is the suspect in her case responsible for other abductions? Back
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Matthew`s arrest has provided them with what they are calling a forensic link. Evidence that could link the suspect at the
center of Hannah Graham`s disappearance to another missing female college student, 20-year old Virginia tech student Harrington went missing after a
Metallica concert on the University of Virginia campus in October 2009. The pair are among several young women who have disappeared in the area in
DNA from Harrington`s remains linked her case to another one four years earlier. The sexual assault of a 26-year-old woman, 98 miles away. The
possibility that Jesse Matthew, the man in the middle of the screen could indeed be a serial killer praying on college girls.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Karamo, Spirit, Jesse Matthew is charged with abduction, with the attempt to defile on the case of missing University of
Virginia freshman Hannah Graham. Now he might - may be linked to a 2009 murder as well.
Sam, break this down.
SCHACHER: God, I have chills. OK. So Jesse Matthew is the suspect in Hannah Graham`s disappearance. Police found DNA evidence when searching
his house, linking him to Morgan Harrington who was murder in 2009. The same DNA found on Morgan was found on a sexual assault victim who got away
PINSKY: Spirit, do you think we just got a serial killer here?
SPIRIT: You know what? We very well may. But I am not one of those people that will say I`m going to find somebody guilty before all the
evidence happens. We`ve seen far too many times when we`ve known that we have the suspect. They go to jail 20 or 30 years and then we hear all of a
sudden there`s new evidence that totally absolves him from the case.
PINSKY: It`s true?
SPIRIT: So I`m not going to rush to judgment here.
PINSKY: It is true. And, of course, Anahita is going to get him off somehow.
PINSKY: But Karamo, that evidence is often DNA-linked. I mean here we have the DNA implicating him.
BROWN: Yes. Dr. Drew, immediately my first gut, especially with everything that`s been going on in Ferguson, and everything else, my first
immediate gut was, like I`ve said before on the show, why are we making the black guy the go-to bad guy? But in this case I have to say, with the
forensic evidence, he is guilty. And I hope that the evidence, more evidence comes about. And that this link helps him - us to inspire other
people to speak up, to feel courageous. Because .
SPIRIT: What`s the evidence, though?
BROWN: I feel this man is guilty.
PINSKY: Well .
BROWN: There was DNA evidence is what they`re saying.
PINSKY: Well, let`s get the attorney here. Come on, let`s go. What is that?
SEDAGHATFAR: If this DNA.
SPIRIT: What is it?
PINSKY: Are you defending him or are you going to condemn him? What are you going to..
SEDAGHATFAR: I`m going to say two things, first, if there is this DNA evidence, if there is a link, then, yeah, you possibly do have a serial
killer. The police have him in custody.
But, you know, the other stuff, the similarities, that could be explained away. You could say that`s circumstantial. But he is linked with four
others. So, yes, if you have this, if it is true, if there is that DNA link, then yeah, it doesn`t look good for him. And we really don`t know,
Dr. Drew his defense. Because guess what. They`ve sealed all the evidence in this case. So, even his defense lawyers don`t know exactly what
evidence they have against him. It`s ridiculous.
SCHACKER: OK. We do know that there is a DNA link. Even before he was charged, even before this DNA, this guy did not act like an innocent
SCHACKER: He went on the run. Innocent people don`t do that. He wouldn`t cooperate with police.
SCHACKER: So, I`m sorry.
SCHACKER: I`m saying, put all of it together. Put all of it together
PINSKY: Bad for him. Bad for him. We`re going to take a break, we are going to hear from Morgan`s parents after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GIL HARRINGTON, MOTHER OF MURDERED COLLEGE STUDENT: I don`t even really feel angry. Because I - my mind just, I can`t comprehend how somebody
could hurt and, you know, kill our beautiful Morgan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I`m back with Sam, Karamo, Anahita and Spirit. Police say they have got DNA evidence linking Jesse Matthew to the 2009 death of a college
student. He`s been charged only so far in the missing case, the case of missing Hannah Graham. Anahita, why hasn`t he been charged with murder and
why has not he been charged in the 2009 case?
SEDAGHATFAR: That`s a good questions.
PINSKY: If they say they have the evidence, why not?
SEDAGHATFAR: Right. If they say they have it. Exactly. But the fact is, Dr. Drew, they can`t just go charge someone with murder right away. They
have to finish their investigation. They have to dot their I`s, they have to cross their t`s.
PINSKY: No, wait a minute.
SEDAGHATFAR: We are talking about a murder charge here.
PINSKY: But wait a minute. If they have sufficient evidence to give the murder charge.
SEDAGHATFAR: It`s not. DNA is not sufficient.
PINSKY: In this -entire of the finish there - entire investigation before they can do this?
SEDAGHATFAR: Of course. I would think they need to present enough evidence to take to the D.A. for them to decide that they have enough
evidence to move forward and charge this guy with murder.
PINSKY: Do you think that`s coming?
PINSKY: How about the 2009 case?
SEDAGHATFAR: Yeah, because that`s the DNA they`re talking about. Yeah, but I think that they`re being very protective about sharing this
information with the public. Because they do not want to risk compromising that investigation.
PINSKY: And Spirit, 12 years ago, a woman claimed Matthew had raped her. He said they had consented, no charges filed on that one. Is that - Does
any of this do anything for you?
SPIRIT: You know, all of it points to that direction. But again, I will not convict somebody without having all of the evidence in place. It just
goes to show, though that when people show us who they are, we need to believe them. We need to intervene sooner. We need to save people by
stopping criminals in their tracks early on. Instead of just bypassing all of the signs over and over.
BROWN: Spirit, you just said you don`t think, you know, you`re not going to say that he`s guilty. But then you said, well, you know, he`s done
something. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it`s a duck. And in this case, this duck is a murderer and -or rapist. And I just hope that
we finally figure out what`s happening.
SPIRIT: That`s two different things.
BROWN: No, because .
SPIRIT: That`s two different things. What I said is evidence. He was .
BROWN: The evidence is there.
SPIRIT: He was - They said they let him off years ago for a different crime. Years ago. Then we have all these other things. And I`m not just
talking about this case. I`m talking about everything that we`ve talked about tonight. How many histories have we seen where judges have let them
PINSKY: But in this case we`re knowing a pattern.
BROWN: Yu know what, we are seeing a clear pattern.
PINSKY: But you know, what, it`s funny you are saying that, Spirit. I talked to a parole officer today on my podcast, saying, who said, that that
was - she thought that was the biggest problem with crime today. That people - that crime pays. That`s what she was basically saying. You can
figure out the way to do it.
SPRINT: Over and over.
PINSKY: Thank you, defense attorney. Sam, what are you saying?
SCHACKER: True, well, from what I see, I agree with Chromo, I think that this is not only a murdering duck but a serial killing duck. And that`s
really scary. Because his preference is college girls. And that`s every young college girl`s worst nightmare.
PINSKY: Yeah. Told this, we`ve had so many tragedies we`ve discussed tonight. I actually agree with what Spirit is saying. Let`s get in there
more aggressively with justice and not with too much sympathy for - I mean I understand we`ve got to have - we were all saying the same thing. Get
the evidence in. But that`s really - that`s .
SEDAGHATFAR: Convict in a court of law. Not in a court of public opinion .
PINSKY: Well ..
SEDAGHATFAR: I think that`s what you`re saying.
PINSKY: Speaking on what`s going on publicly, before we finish the show, I want to talk for just a minute here about the Ebola virus. People are
flipping out about that. Panelists, if you guys want to ask me a question, I would be happy to answer. We have one case now in the United States.
SCHACKER: Yes. The people surrounding him, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: The Ebola virus?
SCHACKER: Yeah. The people - the ambulance worker, the hospital - what is it .
PINSKY: They were apparently very few people in contact with him before he got ill. And this is not one of those conditions that is highly contagious
before the illness really hits. That`s when the virus is contagious, that`s when there`s lots of it circulating. And they`ve been able to
pretty much get all of his contacts and it is not a highly contagious illness in the sense that it is airborne. This is the Texas hospital where
this one case is on isolation, it`s highly contained. He`d been in Africa. Everybody that has been a potential contact is being observed and tested
very, very carefully. Don`t freak out about this, everybody.
SEDAGHATFAR: Are you sure we don`t need to worry, because that`s really scary.
PINSKY: It is scary. I understand that. You`re much more likely to get in a car accident tonight than have problems with Ebola.
SCHACKER: Oh, great.
SEDAGHATFAR: Oh, thanks, Dr. Drew. I feel much better.
PINSKY: You guys, don`t be so primitive. You understand what I`m saying? Assess your risks. Let`s not let this --
SEDAGHATFAR: I`m not worried.
PINSKY: Yes, so - it`s - but let`s be realistic about that it`s something to stay informed. Wash your hands. Don`t put your hands to your face.
This is what you can do to reduce the risk of many different infectious diseases, and there are many likely one - that could get yourself. Wash
your hands. Be careful, everybody. Thank you, panel. DVR us and you can watch us any time. "Forensic Files" is up and it starts immediately
following our show.