Thursday, March 28, 2013

Dr. Drew transcript March 26, 2013: Jodi Arias trial (videos)

Here is the full transcript from the Dr. Drew show on March 26, 2013.



DR. DREW
Jodi Arias Trial
Aired March 26, 2013 - 21:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Ripped from reality, the amazing case. The woman who called the cops on Jodi Arias. She knew Jodi was a killer.

JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: I didn`t mean to shoot him or anything. I didn`t even think I was holding the trigger.

PINSKY: She`ll tell us what gave it away.

Plus, extreme makeover. Why Jodi stood on her head and flipped her hair while under questioning for murder finally explained.

ARIAS: Before they book me, can I clean myself up a little bit?

PINSKY: And did this woman just save Jodi`s life?

Let`s get started.

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Welcome to the program this evening. We`ve got a lot to get into.

My co-host this week, psychologist Michelle Ward.

But before we get into our analysis, we`re going to get back to the trial. Let`s push that play button and finish up the trial for today. Take a look.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let`s talk about the children who are growing up in these homes. And that`s what I was saying is that we`ve discussed children who grow up in an abusive family.

Do they always -- do these children always turn out to have problems or turn out to be abusive themselves?

WITNESS: We`d actually have no way of knowing that. Because we don`t have everybody in our programs and, but I would just say this, that if you grow up --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, lack of foundation.

JUDGE: Sustained.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know -- do you have knowledge with regard to when depending on a child`s personality. Does that make any difference?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, lack of foundation. It`s an issue we discussed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m asking if she has knowledge.

JUDGE: All right, ladies and gentlemen, we`re going to take the evening recess.

The court has a matter tomorrow morning at 10:00. So I`m going to ask that you return at 10:45. And we`ll try to start promptly at that time. So, 10:45 tomorrow morning. Please remember the admonition. Have a nice evening, you are excused.

PINSKY: All right. That concludes the trial for today. Let`s get into our analysis.

Joining me to discuss, as I said, my co-host this week, Michelle Ward, Mark Eiglarsh from speaktomark.com, Judge Karen Mills, and Beth Karas, who is there reporting from the courthouse.

We`re going to take a look at some tape and come back. And then I`m going to play the role of an expert witness. They`re going to interrogate me.

Take a look at this first.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The late `70s and early `80s, that domestic violence wasn`t something that people really paid attention to. Is that right?

WITNESS: That`s correct.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Since you started taking cases, have you ever been asked to represent somebody or be retained as an expert and turned a case down?

WITNESS: Yes, I have.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And how much do you get paid an hour?

WITNESS: Two hundred and fifty dollars an hour for research and $300 an hour for court appearance.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you say an active aggression, can you give us an idea of what you`re talking about?

WITNESS: Well, it could be -- it could be slapping or hitting someone. It could be throwing something. In psychological abuse, you can have somebody who`s putting somebody down in a really insidious way. A lot of women have no proof of physical abuse, because they haven`t reported.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: OK. "In Sessions`" Beth Karas is there. You were in court during that witness` testimony. Did she breathe any new life into the defense?

BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, she really hasn`t applied all of her knowledge about domestic violence to the fact this is this case yet. She`s just been giving the jury a tutorial on domestic violence, even talking about couples` counseling, which is not relevant in this case. Jurors have not put any questions in their basket. They`re just sitting there passively listening to her.

PINSKY: I think she`s just building the case for the possibility that someone like Travis theoretically could be an abuser. She`s talking at length about what it is that she does and all the experience she`s had. It`s very folksy style. So she`s enlisting the trust of the jury.

I want to play expert witness right now. I want you guys to give me your best shot questions. We`ll start with you.

JUDGE KAREN MILLS-FRANCIS, TV`S "JUDGE KAREN": Well, you know, as we heard from this expert today, there are different types of perpetrators of domestic violence. If we are to believe that Travis Alexander was an abuser, what type of abuser would you categorize him as, doctor?

PINKSY: Karen, I think it`s what`s called common couple violence. He`s a guy that felt out of control in a relationship and he resorted to physicality. He was not an interpersonal terrorist.

Interpersonal terrorism is someone who uses power and control.

And, by the way, if I were questioning that witness on the stand, I would say, Alice, what would it be like if a woman, not using physical violence, were to perpetrate control over a male victim, sex and guile? And that`s what Jodi did.

Mark, what do you want to ask me?

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: OK. I always like to take witnesses and turn them around and make them help my case. So, what I`m going to do is I`m going to ask you now to testify on behalf of the prosecution, OK?

PINSKY: Yes.

EIGLARSH: And I want you to hypothetically believe that Jodi Arias, the defendant in this case, slashed Travis` tires, followed him around and hypothetically slashed his tires again, also change the facts a little bit, because she did. And I want you to tell us why she`s the abuser and not the abused.

PINSKY: Because -- let`s look at the facts. This is the one thing that never seems to happen in this case. No one seems to focus on the facts. The facts are exactly as you say, Mr. Prosecutor. The facts are she is the one that perpetrated violence on someone else. He may be according to her at least, took a couple of swings at her, not OK. Their relationship was not healthy.

And, by the way, Karen, I`ve heard you talk very clearly about this case. It`s just two unhealthy getting together. And, you know, typically unhealthy people end up in an unhealthy situation. And that`s exactly what happened there.

What kind of abuser would she be, Mark? Is that the question?

EIGLARSH: Oh, yes. I think that you could turn this whole thing around, and she is equally consistent as an abuser based on the facts that she`s thrown out, and we can`t even brief what she`s saying.

PINSKY: Absolutely. She`s the one that we have evidence for killing somebody, stalking somebody, lying with impunity.

Michelle, does that not make my case for me?

MICHELLE WARD, CO-GUEST: I think Mark gave you a pretty easy question, because yes, the evidence in this --

PINSKY: That`s right.

WARD: The evidence in this case speaks for itself. I mean, there is an element, look, this witness is doing a great job. As a trial consultants, that`s what we want to see. We want to see that the expert witness is being a teacher to the jury. And she`s just setting up the foundation to show there is a reasonable doubt here. It`s possible that she was a victim.

PINSKY: Beth, does any one in the courtroom, as you hear the buzz around the courthouse, think that way? Do you think anyone is seeing it as hmm, I wonder if, maybe, you know, as I hear and learn about abuse and victimizers, maybe Jodi`s the one actually doing the abuse?

KARAS: Well, I`ve actually heard a few people talking about that. And as I took my notes, I`m thinking, well, I can see certain things here that she`s testifying about. Being turned around and used by the state, kind of making this witness theirs. Maybe she`ll end up being neutralized as an expert witness, that is offering something to both sides.

But I do see things relevant to the state`s case and what she has to say.

PINSKY: I think you`re right. Put my panel up on the screen again for everybody.

Show of hands. How many people think Martinez is not going to be harsh with this lady but is going to sort of reel her in to make his case for him? Anybody besides me raising their hand. Show hands.

Michelle --

EIGLARSH: He`s incapable.

PINSKY: Mark, no?

WARD: It`s possible.

PINSKY: OK.

EIGLARSH: He`s going to rip her by the throat, because that`s the only way he knows how. It`s unfortunate. Please, she doesn`t hurt you. Juan, relax, she does not hurt you.

MILLS-FRANCIS: I don`t think he wants it.

WARD: He shouldn`t, though.

MILLS-FRANCIS: He doesn`t want to alienate this jury, and she is a female. She comes across very motherly, very matronly. She`s not hurting him. Actually, she`s help -- she`s helping him.

So I don`t see why he would, you know, dig into her.

PINSKY: Yes, I agree with Karen. Hold on, guys. Next up --

KARAS: He`s not going to rip her unless she gives him reason to.

PINSKY: There you go. Thank you, Beth.

Next up, a woman who was with Jodi the very day after she butchered Travis Alexander. She called the cops. What made her call the cops?

And later, Mark Eiglarsh doesn`t just have crazy ideas about the prosecution. He says he knows why Jodi was acting so bizarrely in the interrogation room.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

INTERROGATOR: I know that Travis was either in the shower or just outside the shower when he was shot. And I know somebody who was extremely angry at him, took a knife to him and couldn`t stop. And before you knew it, it was all over, and then you panicked. And then you --

ARIAS: I wouldn`t -- I`ve never been angry, that angry at him -- not enough for that. I`ve been so far angrier at other people, at other ex- boyfriends.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Michelle Ward. Michelle is a psychiatrist, and an expert in psychopath.

And, Michelle, that`s why I like working with you when we`re talking about Jodi Arias. Both you and I believe that there`s some element of psychopathy here, wouldn`t you say?

WARD: Right, absolutely. I mean, she looks like she has some borderline features too. But the overwhelming feature I`m seeing now is this lack of conscience.

PINSKY: That`s right. And I think -- when you and I talk clinically about borderlines and psychopath, I think the viewers here are like Charlie Brown`s teacher or my dog when I give him commands.

But the fact is, we`re talking about somebody with no conscience, whose brain doesn`t work like everybody else`s brain out there.

Joining me now is Clancy Talbot. She was a friend of Travis, knew Jodi and found that Jodi had a temper and she knows what we`re talking about when we describe her as a psychopath. She called the police minutes after she learned that Travis was dead.

Clancy, what did you tell the police?

CLANCY TALBOT, KNEW TRAVIS & JODI: Well, thank you for having me.

And I just wanted to really quickly mention the Travis Alexander Fund that has been set up by Chris Hughes and Taylor Searles (ph) to support the Alexander family. If anybody can go there to donate, that would be so great for this family right now. So TravisAlexanderfund.com.

And basically what happened was, you know, we found out that Travis had been killed. It was about 1:00 in the morning when we found out. The very next day after I had been notified, I called, I was calling Arizona Police Department trying to figure out which police department, ask for, you know, the detective in charge, and I think it was on the 11th, I finally got in touch with someone that could let me know that.

And I left a message for detective Flores that next day. And he actually called ply back about five days later. So we had an interesting discussion whether he called me back.

PINSKY: Now, Clancy, you actually saw Jodi the day after the killing. Did you notice anything unusual?

TALBOT: She`s always unusual. So I mean, she -- when she showed up to Utah she had a different hair color. She had a long sleeved shirt on in June, and it was probably 100 degrees. So I thought that was kind of strange, but, you know, she`s kind of strange. So I didn`t think anything of it.

She walked up and gave me a hug, which I didn`t -- she gave me the creeps any way. So that kind of wasn`t comfortable for me. But -- I mean, looking back on it now, that`s horrible for me.

But we went to dinner after the meeting. And she -- I sat right across from her. She had Band-Aids on her fingers, she, there were a lot of strange things that happened now, that looking back on it, but when she was here she act the like her normal strange self. But she didn`t act anything out of the norm.

She always tried to be able to go to events and things that a lot of - - you`d have to have qualifications to go to, and she didn`t qualify for a lot of them. So, we were going on one that next day and she didn`t -- she said she needed to get back to go to work. And that was kind of strange, because she would always try and come with us. So that was kind of strange to me. And I think that --

PINSKY: Clancy?

TALBOT: Uh-huh?

PINSKY: I`m going to interrupt. And it`s interesting. I`m watching Michelle Ward listening to you. She loves psychopaths.

And when you talk about her being strange, Michelle gets this big grin on her face. And also, the other thing we`re hearing you say is she had poor boundaries. She wouldn`t take no for an answer. She would demand, she would push her way into trips.

WARD: Yes.

PINSKY: We`ve heard this about her before, she had no business -- just belong there, yet she`d just blow through. She also had bizarre excuses as to why she would disappear.

But there`s one story you told my producers I really am fascinated with. So, Michelle, buckle in on this one.

She thought you were cheating with Travis at one time and cornered you in the bathroom and became enraged? Tell us that story.

TALBOT: Well, I don`t know if she thought I was cheating. But I know that she -- I mean, she was jealous of all Travis` friends. It didn`t matter if they were male or female, but, of course, she was, you know, more jealous of female friends that he had. And Travis was like a brother to me. He was a really good friend to me.

And I think she testified on the stand about being all over him and he was all over me. And that wasn`t really the case.

I mean, Travis had his arm locked in my arm. And, you know, there`s a lot of people around. It wasn`t just me and Travis. And I don`t even remember seeing Jodi anywhere around. But the next day, at the event --

WARD: Clancy, I have a question for you.

TALBOT: Uh-huh?

WARD: You talk about their strange behavior. And I`m wondering, did you recognize it then as strange behavior? Or is it in hindsight that you put it all together and think God, she was acting creepy. I mean, people like her are creepy. That`s just the way it is, and a lot of what you`re talking about is this lack of shame.

Did she -- when you saw her the day after she brutally killed Travis, did you recognize a creeper Jodi or was she just Jodi?

TALBOT: Well, the second time I ever saw Jodi, I got the creeps from her. So to me, it`s hard to answer that question. She was always creepy. She gave me a really eerie feeling, something I`ve never felt before. So, the day, you know, after, looking on it, it`s not any different. She`s the same creep.

(LAUGHTER)

PINSKY: I wish -- I wish you all could, I wish you had the, Michelle up there when Clancy was giving that description because Michelle was giving that knowing, uh-huh, one of my peeps, she`s a psychopath.

WARD: Clancy actually describes it quite well.

PINSKY: Well, so that confirms, how people feel, how other people make us feel tells us something diagnostic. So, now, we`re getting more confirmation as Jodi as a psychopath.

But we`re going to bring in Jodi -- excuse me, Clancy back after the break.

And, Clancy, I want to you do two things when we get back. We`re going to listen to one of the last known recordings of your friend. I want you to react to that. And I want you to finish that story about whether she cornered you in the bathroom. That really is fascinating because it`s the only story I`ve heard about her uncontrolled rage.

Later on, we`re also going to talk about a Jodi in quotes flips out. Does any one know what made her whip her hair back and fort and stand on her head? Mark Eiglarsh says he does.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

TRAVIS ALEXANDER, VICTIM: You know, take Colonel Sanders. He took his chicken recipe. And he went to chicken shack after chicken shack. And he would just say, hey, I have a chicken recipe that I think you`re going to like. And all you have to do is use it and give me a percentage of your profits from every piece of chicken that you sell. He became one of the richest men in the world. And is the reason why I need to lose 10 pounds before Cancun.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Michelle Ward.

Travis Alexander never got to Cancun. He was killed by Jodi Arias -- just days after that recording was made.

Clancy, he was your friend. What is it like to hear his voice now?

TALBOT: It`s hard. It brings everything back to who Travis was, and what he was all about. And, you know, you wanted to be a better person when you were around him. And he wanted you to be the best you you could be. And I wanted everybody to laugh. And he was just a great person.

It`s really hard. And it makes you, you know, know what this family`s going through right now.

PINSKY: Yes. Now, Clancy, we want to say this now. We are, every night, I want everyone to pray for that family because what they`ve had to go through is unconscionable. It`s so sad. So, I`m glad you`re speaking out on their behalf.

I want you to finish that story for me. Tell me about her range when she cornered you in the bathroom. So, one thing no one has really talked about. No one has ever presented her potential. How is it possible? That`s what everyone asks themselves.

You look down the barrel of the -- into the depths of her soul, I imagine, when she was shaking and angry and raged at you for having related to her friend -- your friend. Tell us about that night.

TALBOT: Well, first of all, I don`t think she has a soul, but the next morning is actually when it happened. And I still don`t know how she got me in the restroom by myself. There`s thousands of people there. And she got me in there by myself.

And she just blocked like the door and stood in front of me and kept saying the same thing over and over of -- you know, I just wanted you to know Travis and I are an item now. And I`m not upset with you, but I`m really upset with him. I`m more upset with him than I am with you.

And she was shaking and saying it over and over again. And I already thought she was creepy. And so, you know, with her confronting me in the restroom, it was just really uncomfortable.

Of course, looking back on it now, it`s scary.

PINSKY: Well, it was uncomfortable. But did you fear for your -- scary in retrospect, did you fear for your safety at that time. You said it made the hair stand up on the back of your neck. Did you really think oh, my goodness, what has she gotten me into here?

TALBOT: I mean, I thought about, you know, what, what is she trying to do? What is her point? What -- you know, I don`t understand why she`s so upset.

But one of my friends came in and stopped, you know, and said what are you doing? What`s going on? And so I got to leave. So I don`t know what would have happened.

PINSKY: Wow, wow!

Mark, you had a question for Clancy?

EIGLARSH: I do.

First of all, Clancy, thank you so much for sharing your insight with us. You mentioned earlier that you spoke with the detective and it seemed like there was something interesting that either you shared with him or he shared with you. Can you reveal that to us?

TALBOT: Well, when he called, I don`t know if this is part of, you know, their -- the way they do things or not. But -- I mean, the second I found out -- I knew it was Jodi. I knew she`d been missing for a day. I, you know, was with Ryan Burns at dinner. So I knew her whole schedule.

So I called the detective. And when he called me back I just let him know, it`s her. I know it`s her. And he said, that`s a pretty bold accusation to be accusing someone of. And I -- he wanted to know what proof I had.

And I said I have no proof. All I have is a gut feeling. I know it was her. And, you know, be being a detective --

EIGLARSH: You were certain.

TALBOT: I knew it was her. I knew it was her. And, you know --

PINSKY: We have to leave it at that, Clancy. Anything else that he said that sort put a button on it? Or do we have to leave that top topic?

TALBOT: I -- I mean, that`s pretty much the gist of the conversation. But he got on top of it after that.

PINSKY: Clearly. And, Clancy, thank you again, and thank you for keeping the family in mind here. They have suffered unspeakable loss.

OK, thank you to my panel.

TALBOT: They are a great example to all of us. Thank you.

Next up, Jodi`s interrogation behavior explained.

And later, did this defense`s witness save Jodi? Is he breathing -- did this witness breathe new life into the defense?

We`ll be back right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: This is a really trivial question, and it`s going to reveal how shallow I am, but before they book me, can I clean myself up a little bit?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JODI ARIAS, ACCUSED OF KILLING HER EX-BOYFRIEND: This is a really trivial question, and it`s going to reveal how shallow I am, but before they book me, can I clean myself up a little bit?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Time for our behavior bureau. That, of course, was Jodi during her interrogation with the police. Back with me, my co-host, Michelle Ward. You see, my whole up there, what`s Mark doing from SpeakToMark.com. What is Mark doing in this panel? well, Mark, step forward, Mark. We want to speak to you, Michelle and I do.

You were speculating about Jodi`s behavior during the interrogation. You have a theory. Give it to us.

MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I didn`t have enough last week and I have little pieces here and there. So, I didn`t want to speculate. This weekend, however, I got an e-mail, someone went to my website, SpeakToMark.com, and she was very complimentary at first, so I chose to read on And in there, she started tell me one piece of the puzzle that I just didn`t know.

It was something that she did back in the 1980s that Jodi is doing on the videotape in the interrogation room and I went oh, my gosh. Now, I got it. As if Jodi was telling me what was going on in her mind.

PINSKY: OK, Mark. Mark, let`s look at the video. Pay attention. This starts with a clip from CBS. And then, when we come back, Mark`s going to give us his entire theory. But I did learn something besides your theory. If you guys want Mark to respond to e-mails and Twitter, just compliment his appearance. Watch the tape.

(LAUGHTER)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was not surprised. One of the things she said to me as soon as she saw me was, is there any way I can get my purse so I can get my makeup on.

ARIAS: Any chance you could get my purse?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. We`ll get that. From the house?

ARIAS: Will they bring it to me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If somebody goes on and checks public record and they can check it. And they would come up --

ARIAS: But it`s going to be on the news tonight?

You should have at least done your makeup, Jodi, gosh.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: OK, Mark. Lay out the theory, and then Michelle, you have at it. Go ahead, Mark.

EIGLARSH: All right. Well, first of all, I asked your producers to include those specific clips because her thought process begins upon arrest. Before she ever gets in that room, she has one request, not to reach out to her own family members or to Travis Alexander`s family, but can I get my purse to put makeup. What`s she so concerned about? Then, we get in the room and she makes it very clear. Can I clean up before I`m booked.

She`s booked because she knows part of the booking process is she`s going to get her mug shot done. Now, all this clearly shows that this narcissist, sociopath, or psychopath is concerned about one thing, that mug shot. But I couldn`t figure out what the physical stuff was about. She`s got the hair flip. We know because most normal people, most gals we`ve seen flip their hair back so their hair looks good.

But the headstand, what was the headstand about. And that`s when Dana from Colorado sent me the e-mail that she in the 1980s, when she was involved in pageants, she, if she didn`t have makeup, they would do the headstand so the blood can flow down through their body to their face to redden their cheeks.

There are also times on the interrogation when she`s rubbing her cheeks. It`s all about looking good for that glamour shot the one that she knows is going to be on the news for everyone to see.

PINSKY: Michelle.

MICHELLE WARD, PH.D., CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I couldn`t agree with you more, Mark. But this is my question for you. She`s a sexual manipulator. She`s the one who introduced all sorts of sexual anal sex to Travis. I think she`s trying to seduce the interrogator as well. She wants him on her side.

PINSKY: I agree. I agree.

EIGLARSH: I agree, but keep in mind that the behavior we`re talking about, the behavior we`re talking about happens when the detective leaves the room. Why is she doing headstands? Why is she rubbing her cheek. Why is she doing the hair flip? Why does she do two hair flip. It`s it`s all about looking good.

PINSKY: Let`s go around the horn. You`ve raised an interesting theory. Let`s bring in the rest of the behavior bureau. Let`s start with Cheryl. Go around the horn here. Cheryl, go ahead.

CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Mark, I think that`s brilliant, I have to say. You know, I`ve been so struck by this mug shot because it looks like a high school yearbook picture. I mean the tilted head and the sweet little smile and the whole bit.

And it really seems like vacillating between like the coquettish kind of sexy look and the little girl look, whichever one is going to be effective in reeling people in. And I really do think that this was trying to get color in her cheeks. I think you`re right.

PINSKY: Yes. But that`s the key, those reeling people in, whether to the photo or the cop was sitting across the table from her. Wendy -- excuse me, Patti Wood, author of -- interestingly, a book called "Snap: Making the Most of First Impressions," she was trying to make an impression. You were shaking your head vigorously. Do you agree?

PATTI WOOD, BEHAVIOR EXPERT: Yes, absolutely. And she`s a person who`s used her feminine beauty to empower herself. So, it makes perfect sense that she would do it in the interrogation to make herself feel stronger and more powerful over these incredibly stressful circumstances.

And the hair flip, that`s primping. That`s clear primping cue to prepare herself to be powerful in that interrogation.

PINSKY: Wendy, have at it.

WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOTHERAPIST: OK, Mark. Welcome to the girls` club. So, now, you know about our pink cheek trick.

(LAUGHTER)

EIGLARSH: I didn`t know. I didn`t know.

WALSH: But I`m going to give you another trick that we use sometimes.

(LAUGHTER)

PINSKY: Go ahead.

WALSH: There`s another trick we use sometimes. You know, when your hair is really flat, it`s because the hair follicles at the root, our gravity`s pulling them down. So, if you stand on your head for a while, it makes your hair look thicker and fuller, because they go --

PINSKY: Wendy.

WALSH: That`s why we go upside down to blow dry our hair.

PINSKY: OK. Everybody, this particular panel, Mark.

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: But I`m just saying, this panel goes under the title of sometimes a cigar is just a good smoke. Thank you, Mark, for bringing us back to reality. Thank you to the panel.

EIGLARSH: Thank you, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Next up, we are grading the defense witness. Did she save Jodi or did she help save Jodi from the death sentence?

And later, it appears the prosecutor, Juan Martinez, is sort of famous in Arizona. I will ask my jurors about his rock star status. Stay with us.

VINNIE POLITAN, HLN HOST: Coming up at the top of the hour on "HLN After Dark." Our bold accusation which really goes to the heart of the case against Jodi Arias. Jodi is obsessed. We`ve got our in studio jury and our virtual jury at home, HLN.com#Jodijury, who will render a verdict by the end of the show. Guilty or not guilty? Our bold accusation. Jodi is obsessed.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: He called me a skank.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In front of other people?

ARIAS: In front of his roommate, Josh Ward.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did Mr. Alexander call you other names besides skank in a joking manner?

ARIAS: Yes. He called me Pollyanna. He called me porn star.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: It is time for our trial report card. I`m back again with my co-host this week, Michelle Ward. So, how did the defense`s last witness, abuse expert, Alyce LaViolette, do on the stand? Giving out the grades tonight, HLN anchor, Christie Paul and author of "Love Isn`t Supposed To Hurt," Mark Eiglarsh, Cheryl Arutt, and Judge Karen Mills-Francis.

Now, everybody hold your grades until the end, please. Judge Karen, how did this witness do today on the stand?

JUDGE KAREN MILLS-FRANCIS, TV`S "JUDGE KAREN": I think she did better than the last defense witness did. She`s very personable. She`s very knowledgeable. She`s giving this jury a background and information that I think is absolutely useless, because I think this whole domestic violence thing wasn`t the best way for the defense to go.

But considering that they`re putting forth this battered wife syndrome, a battered spouse syndrome, she was pretty good.

PINSKY: Christie, this is such an important topic. Is Jodi presenting herself as a victim demeaning the topic and is this witness playing into that?

CHRISTIE PAUL, HLN ANCHOR: I think, you know, I`ve heard from a lot of people on Twitter and Facebook, Dr. Drew, who are not happy that she took this route, because they say it`s an insult to people who really have been battered. But I`ve got to tell you, I think this witness is doing an awful lot of good for her case.

And the reason is she`s bringing up things that if there`s one juror, one that can relate to abuse in any manner, whether they`d experienced it or somebody else had experienced it. She`s talking about the shame, the humiliation, the wanting to hide it, not wanting to make it public, how it changes your demeanor, how it changes your psyche, and how you would react in ways that you wouldn`t normally react and that might be unexplainable. I think she`s making a lot of head way for the defense.

PINSKY: Cheryl, I agree with Christie, that folksy style and stuff. And I love that she`s giving the world a primer on domestic violence and what it looks like. But it`s a very one-dimensional sort of a primer, which I`m glad the world is receiving, but I don`t think it brings up the complexities of the Jodi Arias case. Do you agree?

ARUTT: Well, you know, Dr. Drew, the thing that I think is fantastic about what`s going on here is that I think she`s really letting people know about domestic violence and letting people understand the cycle of violence in a way that people really haven`t known about it before. Now, I wish she were talking about it in terms of Jodi being the abuser and not Travis being the abuser, because that does seem to be the better fit.

PINSKY: Yes. We`ll talk about that here, because that`s, in fact, the fact here. She`s a defense witness. We`re not going to hear that.

ARUTT: Of course. Of course. She`s not going to say that. And I -- because she -- I have to say, Alyce LaViolette knows her stuff. She really is an expert in domestic violence. I`m watching her, Drew, because this is my area also. I`m watching her lay out these things and talking about some of the less commonly understood nuances of this --

PINSKY: Yes, the nuances.

ARUTT: -- to plug in later some ways that she can connect it. And, we`ll see if she can do it.

PINSKY: Mark, you agree?

EIGLARSH: Yes. I think that she did an excellent job explaining to all of us why O.J. Simpson did what he did. And I`m not referring to taking back his sports memorabilia. OK? But what she`s not going to be able to do is link this back to Jodi truly being a victim in this case. And that`s where they`ll fall short.

WARD: Right.

PINSKY: Christie, help me with that a little bit. I mean, you and I both spent a lot of time communicating with the HLN audience. How do we get them to learn about this topic, be willing to learn about it, and yet, not sort of buy into that being, this being, in fact, precisely what happened to Jodi?

PAUL: Well, that`s the thing. I mean, they`re absolutely right, everything that they`ve said. She`s talking in generalities. She`s not talking about Jodi, and she can`t talk about Jodi, because she hasn`t even interviewed Jodi. So, that`s not even possible for her. But she is talking about a situation that a lot of people have dealt with behind closed doors.

And because of that, she`s making some head way. You know, I got an e-mail from Grace Wong (ph), who`s one of the producers in the courtroom, and she said even the jurors who are prolific note takers are completely pretty much transfixed on her. She`s doing such a good job.

PINSKY: I heard that, too.

PAUL: So, you can tell she`s a good communicator. She`s looking right at them. She`s having a conversation with them. And she brings a lot of credibility. Whether it will be enough, I don`t know. But this is probably their best bet to keep her off death row.

PINSKY: Mark.

EIGLARSH: The problem is the elephant in the room, although, she`s not saying it is, the jurors are supposed to make an inference that what she`s talking about then pertains to Jodi Arias. And while she`s not saying it, it`s the elephant in the room and it`s unfair. It really is.

PINSKY: Right. And plus, she`s building a case about a guy like Travis, Michelle, and you know, what would happen with a guy raised by drug addicted parents and that she sees violence. It`s kind of unfair, isn`t it, Michelle?

WARD: Well, and we need reasonable doubt. That`s all they need is reasonable doubt and not she`s laying the foundation and allowing the jurors to make the inference. And this is the other thing I wanted to say about this witness. As a trial consultant, we know that jurors don`t like to be spoken down to. They don`t care about your Ph.D. and that you`re an expert in whatever you`re an expert in. They want to be taught, and that she is doing a fantastic job of teaching.

PINSKY: That is where her strength is. All right. Let`s give the grade. Mark, what`s the grade?

EIGLARSH: B.

PINSKY: B. Mark gives a B. Cheryl, what is your grade?

ARUTT: You know, I`m giving her an A-. I think she did a fabulous job today. We`ll see what happens on cross and all of that, but A-.

PINSKY: OK. Christie, what do you say?

PAUL: Yes. I give her a B as well. And I would be apt to give her an A just because she is herself doing a great job, but this is a tough task she has ahead of her, because she can`t speak specifically to Jodi, I`ve got to give her a B.

PINSKY: Karen, your grade?

MILLS-FRANCIS: Though I consider her a totally irrelevant witness to this particular case, I think she`s doing a good job at what she`s trained to do. And I give her a B.

PINSKY: Michelle, what say to you?

WARD: You know, I can`t give Bs until I see that cross, but I`ll give her a solid B+.

PINSKY: B+ I, unfortunately -- although, I agree with everything -- everyone is saying and the folksy style and the way she speaks them, I have so many questions about her conclusions in the case she`s building. I`m actually giving her a C. But I`m leaving my day (ph) opportunity to improve her grade. She may end up with an A for me some day because she`s got the good. I just don`t like the way she`s approaching this.

Next up -- thank you panel -- my jurors weigh in. One of them is spending her vacation in Arizona at the trial. How many of you would do that?

And who has become a local celebrity in Arizona. Check it out. You might not believe it. We`ll be right back with that story.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: It is time for Drew`s jury. Back with my co-host, Michelle Ward. Joining us from outside the courthouse, our regular, Katie Wick, and I was thinking to myself, Katie, when I was talking about who might be a local celebrity, I thought my viewers might think it was you, but that`s not who we`re talking about. You are also joined by Somer Hogan. Somer is a mom, vacationing in Arizona from Denver.

Mom, I guess, your husband spent the day at a museum and you spent the day in court. Somer, was it worth it?

SOMER HOGAN, DR. DREW "JUROR": Absolutely. I`ve been following the case at home. My husband and I actually met in Arizona. We lived here a while back and we lived near Mesa, which sort of drew my attention to this case when it came to trial. So, I`ve been following it as much as I can at home with three little boys to chase around.

And, I never imagined by the time we got here for spring break, we would still be in trial. But since we are, I begged my husband to let me spend the day down here and he happily of liked.

PINSKY: And tell us. What did you learn? What was it like? Was it everything you expected?

HOGAN: It was everything I expected. Yes. It`s very interesting to see, you know, these people in person and realize that they`re human beings versus watching them on a TV screen. But it was fascinating to, you know, be a part of this trial and to see it happen in person.

PINSKY: Did you form any different opinions now having been there in person?

HOGAN: No, not really. It`s interesting, Jodi is much more frail and small in person than I expected her to be, having seen her on TV. But beyond that, you know, listening to the testimony today, it didn`t really change my mind about what I think about this case.

PINSKY: Michelle, did you have a question for our jury?

WARD: I do. I`m very curious about Somer`s impression of the process, but I`m more curious about -- you`re spending your vacation in the courtroom? And I heard you`re not alone.

(LAUGHTER)

WARD: I heard there`s lots of people who said forget Disneyland, I`m going to the Jodi Arias trial. Please help me understand this.

(LAUGHTER)

HOGAN: You know, there are lots of people down there seeing the trial. Some of them are locals. Some aren`t. You know, I just wanted one day, just give me one day to actually go see this for myself and, you know, just be kind of part of what`s going on versus watching it on TV. So --

WARD: Fair enough.

HOGAN: -- I`m getting vacation in Arizona as well.

(LAUGHTER)

PINSKY: Enjoy.

HOGAN: Thank you.

PINSKY: Katie, back to you. Everyone is going after the attorneys after court. My understanding is, I want you to describe the scene outside the courtroom for us, but my understanding is the defense attorneys like need protection from all sorts of threats and somebody else has become a celebrity.

KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": Yes. It`s quite different, actually. You don`t see a lot of people going up to the defense and I would like an autograph or a photo with you. You see a lot of people more. I`d say the last week or so, I`ve seen a lot of people waiting outside the courthouse to get a photo with Juan Martinez.

And I just wanted to mention, though, Dr. Drew, I think there`s two different groups that really appreciate Juan Martinez. I think there`s the group that likes him because of his star status, so to speak, but then, there`s the other group that really respects him for how wonderful of a job he does representing Travis.

I mean, he`s like the light in a very dark place right now. And he`s Travis` voice. In essence, he`s sort of like our voice, too. And he`s steadfast. And he doesn`t really care what people say. He does care -- I don`t want to say he doesn`t care, but he doesn`t really let that interfere with the road he`s on in seeking justice for Travis. And I think there is a big -- a huge amount of respect for him for that.

PINSKY: Somer, did you ask for a picture with Juan Martinez?

HOGAN: No. I didn`t get to see Juan Martinez outside of court. So, I didn`t ask for a picture.

PINSKY: Oh, you would have. Michelle, you heard that. She would have --

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

HOGAN: Hey, had I had the opportunity, of course, I would have. Yes. But Katie is right. He`s absolutely Travis` only voice. Yes.

PINSKY: Well, yes. We`ve heard -- and again, we`ve got to keep our thoughts and prayers with the family. I want to take a break. I`m going to take a call with my jurors. Be back right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Welcome back. I`m with my co-host, Michelle Ward, from investigation discovery "Stalked." We were talking to my jurors, Katie Wick and Somer Hogan. And I said we`d go out to a caller. So, let us all do so. Jan in Florida. Jan, go right ahead.

JAN, FLORIDA: I want this woman convicted and sentenced to death. I don`t care whether she lives or dies, but I don`t think she ought to have the right to be having sex with her girlfriend and participating in music contests.

PINSKY: So, Katie, I think --

JAN: What do you think of that?

PINSKY: Well, I`m going to ask my jurors that, I guess, Jodi lass a life behind bars and people are objecting to that. Is there any sense of that in the courtroom?

WICK: Absolutely. People are infuriated that really it`s kind of a little community group that she`s in now. And the death -- if she gets the death -- if she gets sentenced to death, it`s going to be very different. Twenty-three hours confined to a cell with one hour out a day, it`s going to be a completely different lifestyle for Jodi. And this is -- I think she`s starting to realize that time`s ticking.

And today, Dr. Drew, is the first day I didn`t see, it was very interesting, any questions put into that jury box. I didn`t see one. And the jurors are paying attention, but I tend to disagree that it`s because they`re really -- this witness is helping the defense. I think it`s just because what she`s doing, I think, that people are very interested.

And I think, in essence, they`re sort of -- what she`s saying is fascinating. I think what they`re doing is kind of applying it to their own life as they sit there. I don`t think they`re really even thinking about Jodi and Travis. Yes.

PINSKY: But I think they will. I think she`s building a case --

WICK: Hmm.

PINSKY: -- that later will apply. They will have questions, I suspect. Ladies, thank you so much. I`m just sitting here thinking, this may be a new sort of therapy for moms with three kids which, by the way, hats off to you, that need to get away.

(LAUGHTER)

PINSKY: Just go to a murder trial. Michelle, thank you, as always. I really appreciate you work with us this week. Thank you all for watching. Reminder, you can like us on Facebook at Facebook.com/DrDrewHLN, also at Twitter, DrDrewHLN.

"HLN After Dark" is next. I will see you there as one of the expert witnesses with Vinnie and Ryan. It starts right now.

END 

Jane Velez-Mitchell transcript Jodi Arias Trial March 27, 2013 (videos)

On March 27, 2013, the Jodi Arias trial was cut short when Arias apparently suffered a migraine headache. Here is the transcript from Issues with Jane Velez-Mitchell, where she and her guest panel discussed the reasons behind Arias' absence.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL
Jodi Arias Sick or Stalling?
Aired March 27, 2013 - 19:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Breaking news. We`ve got brand-new information just in on Jodi Arias and why court was suddenly called off. And it`s not just because Jodi has a migraine. There are more complaints, in fact.

Plus, controversy tonight over prosecutor Juan Martinez signing autographs and stopping for photo-ops. He`s turned into a local superstar with his very own fan base. But is he celebrating too soon? Is this appropriate, or not?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VELEZ-MITCHELL (voice-over): Tonight, why does the Jodi Arias trial come to a screeching halt, with today`s session mysteriously and suddenly canceled this afternoon? Is Jodi sick, or is she faking it to push back judgment day? We`ve seen her popping pills in court. Is that a clue? Or could Jodi be freaking out knowing she`s on her last witness? We`ll debate it with my expert panel.

Plus, new controversy over prosecutor Juan Martinez. He`s swarmed by fans, posing for pictures and signing autographs. But should he just say "no" until the verdict`s in? I`m taking your calls.

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, TRUTV`S "IN SESSION": I heard Jennifer Willmott, after she poured a glass of water for Jodi, handed it to Jodi and said to the sheriff`s deputy, "Be sure she takes her medication."

DR. RICHARD SAMUELS, PSYCHOLOGIST: At various times she was on a tranquilizer, was on an antidepressant.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is Ms. Arias taking medication?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She takes her medication.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, breaking news. We`ve got brand-new information coming in at this hour about the huge mystery in the Jodi Arias courtroom.

Tonight, a friend of the Arias family is complaining that Jodi has a migraine and says she`s being forced to wake up too early. Could that be what`s making Jodi sick? Or could Jodi be hatching a secret plan to stall for more time, or could she even be trying to create a basis for appeal?

Good evening, I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, coming to you live.

The beautiful 32-year-old photographer admits she stabbed Travis Alexander 29 times, slit his throat from ear-to-ear, all the way back to the spine, and shot him in the face. But Jodi says, "Oh, I did this all in self-defense. I was abused."

Yesterday, we heard Jodi was feeling faint. And they gave her a Power Bar. But we saw her in court at a hearing this morning, and she looked just fine. Then suddenly, out of nowhere, court is mysteriously called off for the day. And then we found out Jodi is being given strict instructions: take your medicine, just before court is canceled. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: I heard Jennifer Willmott, after she poured a glass of water for Jodi, handed it to Jodi and said to the sheriff`s deputy, "Be sure she takes her medication."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. And tonight, we`re learning new information about what she`s taking medicine for, for migraines. And the Arias friend complains Jodi is being forced to wake up at 1 a.m., to shower and dress and leave the jail at 2:30 a.m. She remains in a holding cell at the courthouse until she is brought into the courtroom.

The obvious implication is, it`s a complaint that she`s too tired. She`s forced to wake up too early. She`s too stressed to assist in her own defense. And she`s getting a migraine.

But we`ve also learned brand-new information to the contrary. The sheriff`s office says no way, it`s not 1 a.m. She`s woken up as early as 3 a.m. Still, is that too early or is this one of Jodi`s many ploys?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT (singing): It might change my memory.

(speaking): You should have at least done your make-up, Jodi, gosh. Goodness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So what do you think: a ploy or a legitimate complaint? Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS; 1-877-586-7297.

Straight out to our own senior producer, Selin Darkalstanian. You were in court when everything went crazy, this mysterious cancellation, and you`ve got some new information. What can you tell us?

SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, HLN SENIOR PRODUCER: Jane, day 39 of this trial. We`re getting ready to hear the domestic violence expert who essentially could be the one who saves Jodi`s life by testifying that she does fit the criteria for domestic violence expert [SIC].

But abruptly, court is canceled. We all have to leave. Everyone is shocked. Everyone`s wondering, what happened? What could it be? And it turns out that Jodi is suffering from migraines.

Now, we know that she suffers from migraines, because we`ve seen her take, actually take her migraine medication in court before. So we know that she`s had this problem before.

Yesterday, she felt faint, so they had to call a break, and she had to eat a protein bar. So she`s getting headaches. She`s complaining of hunger, and she`s taking her medication. And then today, all of a sudden, court is canceled.

And the court wouldn`t tell any of the reporters why it was canceled. But we could -- we`ve learned that it is because of her migraine headaches. And you have to wonder, why was it canceled? Was she not taking her medication today? Because essentially, this is a very important day for her. This is the witness that could save her life.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And you know, she was on a roll. Everybody, even people who have been very, very critical of her, say, "Wow, this is a good defense witness, and she`s on a roll. And the jurors are listening." And suddenly, it breaks the momentum. Why would she risk that?

Well, she says, according to new information, she had a migraine. And I want to go to Beth Karas, correspondent, "In Session." Let me -- let me read you what`s coming in.

Donovan Bering, a friend of the Arias family, is confirming Jodi suffered a migraine. She then goes on to say, "Hey, on trial days Jodi is woken up at 1 in the morning to shower and dress and leaves the jail at 2:30 a.m. and remains in a holding cell in the courthouse until she`s brought into the courtroom."

The obvious implication there is that she`s being woken up too early, that it`s stressing her out. And that it -- it`s almost, I`m not going to say harassment, but that yes, it`s way too early. Court starts at 9:30 her time, right? So why does she have to get there so early.

BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, TRUTV`S "IN SESSION": Ten-thirty.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, 10:30. What have you learned? Because I know you`ve talked to the sheriff`s officials.

KARAS: Yes, just a couple of hours ago, I spoke with a spokesperson for Sheriff Arpaio. His office, or the sheriff`s department monitors and runs the jail. And he told me that all inmates on trial -- I didn`t ask about other inmates who are awaiting trial, just the ones on trial, are awakened as early between -- I think it was 3, maybe as early as 3, but you know, 4 or 5. They -- they wash; they get dressed. They are transported to the courthouse. They have breakfast at the courthouse. He calls it a sack lunch. But Jodi gets lunch. The judge ordered her to get lunch, so she doesn`t have to go 12 hours before having dinner back at the jail.

And he told me what they do is they take her breakfast, and they cut it in half. So she gets half of it before court and half of it during the lunch hour. If her lawyers ask for an additional 500 calories for her, they`ll give it to her. But right now, they`re just giving her the 2,600 calories a day that all inmates get.

But he did not say 1 a.m. There`s no need for her to get up that early. I`m not saying Donovan Bering is wrong, but the spokesperson for the sheriff`s department told me between 3 and 5, I think, and then they come to the courthouse.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: There`s a -- there`s a window there. So let`s -- let`s say it`s 3. I mean, you`re saying it starts at 10:30 their time? So 3...

KARAS: Right. But everybody gets here, and they`re held in cells. They`re held in cells at the courthouse, and they`re fed. And they`re, you know, just waiting for trial.

You know, some inmates, trials start at 9. They`re not going to transport them at the convenience of the judge`s schedule. Jodi Arias is going to come. If another inmate has to be here for 8:30, the bus is going to get here for 8:30 or, you know, well before that so they can have their breakfast. She`s going to come with the gang. And so she`ll have to wait around. Other inmates, their trials are starting earlier in the day. OK, so Jodi sits in her cell an extra hour or two.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let`s debate this with our expert panel. And we`re going to start with the famous Marcia Clark, author of the fabulous "Guilt by Degrees."

You have several books out now. We`re going to show them, so anybody who wants to get them, over the course of this hour, you`ll know exactly what they are. But you know -- there it is, "Guilt by Degrees."

Marcia, you know exactly what it`s like to be at the very center of this white-hot spotlight, this high-profile trial and all the stress it brings. You gained fame as a prosecutor during the O.J. Simpson case, and during that trial, the entire world was watching. I believe we even have some video of that trial from way back in the mid-`90s.

I was a local TV newscaster during that time. And we spent hours and hours -- and I`m embarrassed to say it, Marcia -- discussing your hair style. The entire world was watching every word that came out of your mouth. What it`s like in terms of stress? Because stress can create migraines, not just for the defendant but for people who are arguing the case on either side. This is a pressure cooker. I don`t think anybody who`s not right in the thick of it can even begin to comprehend what a pressure cooker it is, Marcia.

MARCIA CLARK, AUTHOR/FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yes, it`s true. There`s -- it`s an enormous pressure cooker. That`s a really great way of putting it, Jane. Well put.

But it`s funny, because with all of that that`s going on, and it is crazy, and there`s enormous tension; there`s a great deal of heat and tension in the courtroom, because everybody is watching. Inside the courtroom it`s packed.

And yet, when you sit down at counsel table and you`re facing the witness stand, it`s kind of like a tunnel vision. That`s all I saw. I saw the jury. I saw the judge. I saw the witness and, of course, the defense table if I needed to and focused forward. And so there was a way of just completely blocking it all out.

It was actually when I left the courtroom that I remembered how much - - how much scrutiny there was and how many people were watching. And that was only because reporters were literally allowed to stand outside the courtroom door and shove microphones in our faces, which they`re not allowed to do anymore. There`s a certain no-fly zone around the courtroom so that the lawyers can move in and out. But that`s when you could really feel it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me debate this with our expert panel. And let`s bring in Randy Zelin, criminal defense attorney.

Do you think the stress is getting to her? Do you think these migraines are genuine whether or not this complaint about having to wake up too early is valid?

RANDY ZELIN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I can`t help but wondering from a strategic standpoint. If I am the defense, I don`t want to give the prosecution the weekend, particularly with the holiday, and I don`t know what the judge`s schedule is going to be in terms of the holiday, but to give the prosecution the whole weekend to prepare for the cross-examination of the expert. So if I can run the testimony of the expert out beyond the weekend, so this way the cross of the prosecution starts on Monday, that`s...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Monday there`s no court is my understanding, and...

ZELIN: Then Tuesday.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It starts again on Tuesday. So you think this is strategic. That`s fascinating, because I thought, well, maybe she really has a headache. This woman was her best chance, her shot at saving her life. She`s a domestic violence expert, who`s arguing, yes, she is a victim of abuse or fits the pattern. And suddenly, we stop it while she`s on a role.

But Stacey Honowitz, is it possible that this is part of a bigger strategy?

STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Look, you never know what the defense is thinking, especially a defendant who`s manipulative like she is. I mean, we all know that she did have a history of migraine headaches. And certainly, the defense attorney doesn`t want to go forward if her client can`t aid her and says that I`m not properly prepared because I don`t feel good. You don`t want your client keeling over at the table.

But again, I`m not a mind reader. It could be something very bogus or it could be something nefarious and something strategic. Or it could be that she really doesn`t feel good, and they said, "We`re not going to court today, because she`s not ready."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, on the other side of the break, we`re going to talk about her migraine medication. And correct me if I`m wrong, because I might be, because I don`t get migraines, thank God. But do you take migraine medication every day? No, you only take it when you get a migraine. And apparently, we`ve been hearing from our sources that she takes her migraine medication every day. That doesn`t add up to me.

Tonight on "HLN AFTER DARK," a closer look at Travis. Was he a sexual deviant really? Join Vinnie Politan and Ryan Smith tonight, 10 Eastern for "HLN AFTER DARK."

On the other side, we`re going to bring you more inside information. What the heck is going on with Jodi Arias? Is she laughing in her cell right now? Or is she grabbing her head because it`s pounding?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nine-one-one emergency.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A friend of ours is dead in his bedroom.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: State of Arizona versus Jodi Ann Arias.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s lots of blood.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Count one, first-degree murder (premeditated murder).

JENNIFER WILLMOTT, JODI`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jodi was Travis`s dirty little secret.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Has he been threatened by anyone recently?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, he has.

ARIAS: I wouldn`t say obsession. It was a two-way street.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caused the death of Travis V. Alexander.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To be honest, the evidence is very compelling. But none of it proves that I committed a murder.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: He had zero tolerance, so he got very angry and began to swear and started banging the steering wheel with his first, and hitting the inside of the door and just screaming at other drivers who were oblivious to him. But he was screaming at them and just angry. I mean, it was like he was straining at the leash with the seatbelt, like he couldn`t restrain himself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What is wrong with Jodi Arias? Why was court abruptly canceled? You see her taking pills right there in court. And we are learning from a family friend, yes, she had a migraine, and also that same family friend claimed that she`s forced to get up too early, claiming she`s forced to get up at 1 in the morning.

Our Beth Karas talked to officials. They said no. It`s at the very earliest 3, but it`s more likely 4. She has to get into a holding cell at the courthouse long before she goes out to be in court and be on the national airwaves, as well.

So is she faking a problem to postpone judgment day or for some strategic reason? Or is she really getting migraines and are they, perhaps, waking her up just a little bit too early than they have to, because she`s not very popular? OK.

One of the defense psychologists, Richard Samuels -- the defense psychologist -- tested that Jodi at some point had been taking tranquilizers and antidepressants behind bars. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE SHERRY STEPHENS, PRESIDING OVER TRIAL: "Is Ms. Arias taking medication to treat this terrible PTSD disorder?"

SAMUELS: She has been taking -- at various times, she was on a tranquilizer, was on an anti-depressant. Sometimes medication is suggested to PTSD depending upon the nature of the symptoms.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Of course, she said, "Yes, I had PTSD. That`s why I went into a fog." But now she`s saying, through a family friend, "I have a migraine." So she`s sitting somewhere behind bars, Dr. Jeff Gardere, clinical psychologist, purportedly complaining of a migraine, or perhaps not.

Now, I find this whole idea that she had been at some point -- remember, she`s been in jail for years now. This killing happened in 2008. She was arrested about a month later. She`s been in jail for going on five years. In July, it will be five years.

So at some point -- and he talked to her back a couple of years ago, at least -- she was taking antidepressants and tranquillizer. Now we find she`s taking migraine medications, so called. What do you make of it? Is it possible that maybe something is going on behind the scenes that we don`t know about her being on something, and that`s why she`s so flat?

DR. JEFF GARDERE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it is possible that she`s been on some antidepressants, especially if there is some sort of PTSD. Though we don`t normally treat people with personality disorders, as we believe she may have, with an antidepressant unless, of course, she has some sort of underlying depression.

But as far as the -- having the migraine headaches, we do treat them, physicians treat them as a prophylaxis. In other words, they give them some beta-blockers so that they can reduce the numbers of migraines they have. So they actually take the medication before actually getting a migraine.

And one of the side effects, major side effects, happens to be being tired, as well as nausea and other sorts of medical issues.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, so I stand corrected. Because I thought it was odd that she was taking her daily migraine medication. Because I thought, well, you take a migraine medication when you get a migraine. But you just explained it. Very good.

Let`s debate it. And I want to continue now with Drew Findling. You guys, it`s open mic. You can just go at it.

But Drew, what do you make of this? Do you think she really have a migraine or is this some strategery [SIC]?

DREW FINDLING, ATTORNEY: Jane, there is zero chance that this is a defense strategy. No defense attorney is going to risk their career by unethically getting her to fake an illness so they can get the weekend off or prevent a cross-examination in a timely fashion.

Listen, Marcia is right, it`s a pressure cooker. It is because at the end of the day, whether it`s Marcia or Drew, or any other attorney, we go home on the weekend. We may get to see a movie, have a nice dinner.

The inmate goes back to the jail, and they wake up at 3 in the morning. And that is a tremendous amount of pressure when you`re looking at the fact that, if you lose the trial, you`re going to get injected with something that`s going to kill you in a matter of seconds. That`s a lot of pressure. And this is not unusual when you`re waking up at 3 or 4 in the morning, to get ill like this.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Very quickly, why do people think this is happening? Do you think she`s being woken up too early? Do you think the jail is somehow -- and I`m not making this accusation. The family friend said 1 a.m. Apparently, that is not what the officials are saying. But could they be jangling those jail bars just a little bit earlier than they have to, just to stick it to her a little bit?

And let`s debate it. You`re saying no, Stacey?

HONOWITZ: No. I mean, we all know. We`ve all worked in the system for a very long time. The sheriff is in charge of deciding what time to wake the inmates up. Because everybody has a different jail schedule in the morning.

Beth Karas was correct: Even if she has a 10:30 court date, another inmate may have to be in court at 8:30. It`s not a taxi service. It`s not a car service. They bring them all over together at the same time, and they`re not making any exceptions for any of the inmates to be brought over at a separate and distinct time.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And guess who wants to debate, too? Jon Lieberman, HLN contributor, jump in.

JON LIEBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: I actually agree with Drew. I mean, I think this is probably, you know, a real migraine, but you know, this isn`t even the real issue here.

I mean, the issue is I don`t believe this domestic violence expert is going to play that big a role in this trial at all. The reason being, Jane, there was a hearing back in August of 2011 that precludes this domestic violence expert from actually tying this in directly to Travis Alexander. And that`s what`s being missed here. That`s why she`s basically giving a course, a lecture about domestic violence. But in most ways, because of a judge`s ruling, she`d precluded can`t tie it to Travis.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No wonder Jodi has a migraine. I mean, come on. She sees that this is her best shot, and it`s a tutorial on hypothetical abuse that doesn`t mention Travis or Jodi. She`s not mentioned Travis or Jodi once, to my knowledge.

I think Jodi is scared. I think the reality of this is sinking in. It`s for real. We`ll be right back with more.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: Should at least done your make up Jodi, gosh.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS (via phone): I love it when you grab my butt (UNINTELLIGIBLE), but you only do it, like, when you`re trying to prove somebody else.

ALEXANDER: You cannot say I don`t work that booty.

ARIAS: Never mind. You do know how to work the booty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And tonight, Jodi Arias has a migraine. Let`s go out to the phone lines. Susie (ph), Louisiana, your question or thought. Susie?

CALLER: Hey, Jane. I wanted to say that my husband and I watch your show every night. We enjoy it very much. You do a great job to help people.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you.

CALLER: Jane, my comment is this: I suffer from migraines. I don`t think that Jodi has a true migraine. If she did, she would be fell over on the table in severe time.

You can`t stand the light in your eyes, and -- and those sort of things. And I do take a migraine medication. It`s called Zenutropin (ph). And I don`t take it every day. I only take it when the migraine starts.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think that`s very informative. And again, most -- except for Randy Zelin, I think he raise the possibility it could be strategic. But most of our panel doesn`t think that the defense would risk it.

However, you know, you`ve got to wonder briefly -- and I`ll go to Randy on this. If -- if there`s something, let`s say, that the defendant wants to do that could be good strategically for the attorneys, and I`m not accusing anybody of anything. I`m just asking hypothetically. They say, "Oh, I have a migraine."

Whether you believe it or not, you`re going to say, I mean, you -- you probably are going to say, "OK, we`ll call off. We`ll tell them, go back to jail. And we`ll just pick this up on -- well, we`ll pick it up tomorrow, but it will extend into next week.

ZELIN: Hey, I`m going to do that. When I have a client whose life is on the line or their liberty is on the line, I`m going to do everything and anything I can to get the best result I can.

And I am not going to give a prosecution team three days or four days to rip apart the one witness who may hold the key to my client not having her life punched out. No way, no how. I`m going to run this direct examination beyond the weekend so the prosecution goes right into the cross and does not get the weekend to prepare.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Marcia Clark, when you think about it, and I`m sure you can relate to this, these -- her attorneys are the same people who are buying this idea that she`s a victim of domestic violence and don`t bat an eye that she lied repeatedly, first said wasn`t there, then said two masked ninjas came in and killed Travis and she miraculously escaped. I mean, if you`ve suspended disbelief to that point, well, the sky is the limit.

CLARK: Well, for sure. The defense, regardless of what the lawyers believe in their hearts, you know, when you`re alone in the room at night, away from Jodi in the courtroom, is one thing. And what they`re going to present to the world is quite another. And they have to prevent the best defense they possibly can and present it as though they believe it themselves, or else they`re never going to sell it to a jury.

And let me correct one thing. The prosecution is getting ready for this cross-examination now, always. The minute the witness takes the stand, they`re taking notes, they`re preparing, they`re getting ready. So even if they stretch this witness`s testimony out into Monday or Tuesday, the prosecution is going to have the weekend to prepare with what she`s said so far, which is quite a lot. She`s really given the bulk of her testimony.

And it`s really common, Jane, for these experts to be limited to talking in general about what is the theory behind domestic violence and what happens to abuse victims and their symptomology and not be allowed to tie it specifically to the parties involved. It`s very common.

But you know, it`s up to the lawyer in closing arguments, then, to connect the dots. And they will. And I`m sure the jury is able to connect the dots, too, because this expert has already talked about many of the things that Jodi testified to. The jury`s not going to miss that. They`re going to get it. They`re just -- the expert is not allowed to say it out loud. But make no mistake: the prosecution is getting prepared, as we speak, and they will be prepared when it`s time the cross-examination, whenever it happens.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Meantime, this is day whatever, 38, 39, however you`re counting it. It`s way out of control, according to some people.

On the other side of the break, we`re going to talk about the prosecutor. He`s now embroiled in a controversy that`s new. We`re going to tell you about that.

And we`re also going to talk about why is this trial taking so long? At the top of the hour, Nancy Grace listens to this bizarre day in court. Why did it come crashing down? Nancy`s take at the top of the hour. We are going to take your calls on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: Were you crying when you were shooting him?

JODI ARIAS, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: I don`t remember.

MARTINEZ: Were you crying when you were stabbing him?

ARIAS: I don`t remember.

MARTINEZ: How about when you cut his throat, were you crying then?

ARIAS: I don`t know.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: He had his hands around my neck and was banging my head on the carpet.

KURT NURMI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: So you had sex behind closed doors and he beat you behind closed doors.

ALYCE LAVIOLETTE, DEFENSE WITNESS: A lot of women have no proof of physical abuse because they haven`t reported.

NURMI: Why not just break up with him?

ARIAS: I liked him. So I didn`t (inaudible) to break with him.

I`m game for like almost everything you come up with.

NURMI: Would it be fair to say he has an all-access pass to your body?

ARIAS: Yes.

I wanted to do what he wanted to do.

You are bad. You make me feel so dirty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: As Jodi goes home sick with a migraine, a new controversy tonight, prosecutor Juan Martinez turning into a local superstar. But some critics say these flocking fans could spell trouble for the prosecution`s case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This morning when we got here, we got to the elevator and he was standing right there. I was just kind of like, shocked. He just looked at me and said "Hi". I was like "Hi, it`s so nice to meet you."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. In the courtroom, we all know the prosecutor is fierce and he often raises his voice. He`s straight-faced. Outside, look, he`s being greeted by people. They want his autograph. He has autographed a woman`s cane or agreed to I should say.

So first, let`s go to Selin Darkalstanian. You`re there in Phoenix, you have been there for this entire trial. Wow. How popular is prosecutor Juan Martinez?

SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, HLN SENIOR PRODUCER: He`s definitely very popular as you saw in that footage. He`s signing autographs. There`s a group of trial court observers -- they`re like trial junkies. They come every single day. They sit in the gallery. They show up as early as 5:00 a.m. to stand in line to get into the courthouse to get a seat in this Arias trial.

So at the end of the day, what you don`t see is Juan Martinez coming out, taking photos, signing autographs. And you don`t see that with the defense attorneys. They defense attorneys walk quickly to their cars. They`re always alone. And Juan Martinez is like a superstar. He has a rock star status here in Arizona.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, absolutely. So let`s debate it. Is it a good idea or should he say I`m flattered but no I can`t do that. I`m sorry and walk the other way. Let`s debate it. Start with Stacey Honowitz, prosecutor.

STACEY HONOWITZ, PROSECUTOR: Well, listen, we all know that he became very popular. This trial is televised all over, all the time. And people have a real sense of being aligned in his prosecution and what he`s doing. You know what the public opinion is towards Jodi Arias --

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Should he do it though? That`s my question.

HONOWITZ: I don`t really see what -- he`s not mingling with the jurors. Of course, that`s a whole other different wall of wax. These people are not in the case. They are not witnesses. They are not jurors. And quite frankly, how it`s going to affect the case, I don`t think it`s going to. Some people might say it (inaudible) into the radar. It`s not going to affect the outcome of the case.

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me rephrase the question. Let me rephrase the question. Should a prosecutor, let`s say celebrate or seen to be celebrating before a verdict? We have seen it before. Ok, remember, prosecutor Jeff Ashton, all right. In the Casey Anthony trial, we heard that the crowd cheered for Jeff Ashton as he walked in to hear the verdict. And we all know she was found not guilty of murdering little Caylee. You could have knocked him over with a feather.

So I will continue our debate. Is it possible to jinx a case by celebrating too soon, Drew Findling?

DREW FINDLING, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Let me -- this is to ill- advised. Let`s put it in its context. This isn`t a celebrity Hollywood shoplifting trial. His goal at the end of the case is to try to kill Jodi Arias, to get her convicted and have her subject to lethal injection which will take her life. You do not celebrate and you do not have notoriety and walk around and sign autographs. When you remember the AVA prosecutor`s function is to pursue justice.

His focus is justice in that courtroom, not anybody inferring that what he does within that courtroom is influenced by his desire for notoriety and of course, the inevitable book deal as soon as the trial is over with.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, Marcia Clark, author -- speaking of authors, the fabulous "Guilt by Degree" and other books and obviously famous as a former prosecutor in the O.J. Simpson case. You were there at the white hot spotlight. You were a prosecutor and again I`m ashamed to say I did spend hours on camera discussing your changing hair style.

Is it a dammed if you do, dammed if you don`t situation if he refused to sign some lady`s cane, would he be getting heck for that, too?

MARCIA CLARK, AUTHOR, "GUILT BY DEGREE: Yes. Jane, I have to tell you, in the very beginning when people started coming up and asking for my autograph, I was like "what, no, why?" Why do you want -- and then they would get mad at me. And they say, you know, because you are famous.

But I`m just a prosecutor. They would get mad. Of course, your public persona and the way the public perceives you especially before a jury is picked is important. You don`t want to come off looking like a hard-ass or something. And I didn`t want to insult anybody. I just thought it was weird.

But then I felt like I had to because people were getting pissed off. So you`re kind of there in this lose/lose proposition where people are coming up and asking for your autograph. After the jury is sworn that`s a different story but up until that time especially you are very conscious of, you know, what the public perception is.

Is it unseemly? I mean it`s not wonderful.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.

CLARK: But increasingly all these trials feel to me like "Chicago", you know the movie.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, exactly.

CLARK: It`s become a form of entertainment and you know, we are talking about it --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Sometimes people ask me for my autograph and I say "Mom, cut it out."

All right. Let`s go to the phone lines. Star, California, your question or thought -- Star, California.

STAR, CALIFORNIA (via telephone): Hi Jane, how are you doing?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good.

STAR: Listen, my statement is that I feel Jodi is not only duping everyone, but I think she`s duping her attorneys as well. I think she`s trying to gain as much sympathy from everyone as she`s telling her people, I have a headache, they are telling her how we feel about it, how we feel that she`s crazy. I think that that`s what she`s doing, not the lawyers, not -- not anyone else, just her. It`s her personality.

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You make a great point, Star because -- and I`ll throw this to Jon Leiberman. We forgot the obvious -- sympathy ploy, can`t believe I forgot that. The jury is not sequestered. It`s going to get to them that she`s getting sick -- poor, poor Jodi.

JON LEIBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, but that`s not giving this jury enough credit. I mean we know from the amount of jury questions that they are taking this trial extremely seriously. So I don`t think they are going to be swayed.

Frankly I don`t think many people have sympathy for Jodi. She`s a proven multiple-time liar who finally decided on this self-defense defense which can`t be corroborated with any evidence or any other witness testimony or anything. I don`t think she`s getting anybody`s sympathy.

And back to Juan Martinez, quickly -- there`s two issues. Him signing autographs is going to have no impact on what happens in court. In court he is doing a terrific job of standing for Travis Alexander and standing for the people of Arizona.

The issue more is from the PR perspective. Should he be doing it? I`m a big Juan Martinez fan, but I do think he should wait until the end of the trial because as Drew and some of the other attorneys said, there is a life on the line and he has mission and that mission is not yet fulfilled and that is --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.

LEIBERMAN: -- justice for Travis and his family.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And let me tell you something. We had a woman on last night who is one of those daily watchers in the court every day. I asked her what do you think is going to happen? She said mistrial. I almost fell off my chair. She says she watches the jury all the time and there`s a couple people in her opinion.

So there`s no done deal. We have seen too many high profile cases. There`s a theory that most people make their decision subconsciously. The longer this drags on, the more of a relationship that they have even on a subconscious level with Jodi Arias, the harder it`s going to be for them to decide to give her lethal injection.

We are taking a short break. On the other side, I`m going to show you how Jodi Arias plunged a knife into Travis Alexander`s chest, how deep it went.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: He called me a skank.

NURMI: In front of other people?

ARIAS: In front of his roommate Josh.

He called me Pollyanna. He called me porn star.

I felt like a used piece of toilet paper. And I kind of felt like a prostitute, sort of.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is the knife wound to the chest. Can you paint a picture of that for our viewers?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The stab wound is not totally perpendicular. It`s at a slight angle and it`s penetrating to a depth of 3.5 inches.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: 3.5 inches. This, to me, of all the things I have seen, this gives me chills -- 3.5 inches to the heart.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s deep enough where (inaudible) is as the autopsy report says, it punctured the vena cava.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What`s the vena cava?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The major blood vessel carrying blood to the heart. Think of it as a disruption of the plumbing system of the body. Basically you create a hole where there shouldn`t be a hole so that the loss of fluid, the loss of blood is going to (inaudible) the site of that injury.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: 3.5 inches. That is huge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The knife found its way between the third and fourth rib and then went into the blood vessel.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is as close to like a stab to the heart as you can get?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And she`s saying says she doesn`t remember any of this. How violent of a crime is this?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It appeared to be quite a violent crime.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The medical examiner who performed Travis` autopsy says he believes the 3.5 inch chest wound, the stab to the chest was the first wound Jodi inflicted on Travis when he was sitting there at the bottom of the shower all helpless. And I thought possibly with soap suds in his eyes. That`s a horrifically violent act that the prosecutors write.

But we`ve forgotten all about that. When is the last time we talked about that in this trial? Yes, I understand it`s the defense`s case but let`s bring in our expert panel.

I mean Randy Zelin, we`ve been talking so much. And I know you speak for the defense. But we have been talking so much about whether or not she was in a fog and that`s why she hasn`t been able to be questioned about any of these stab wounds -- the 29 stab wounds -- because she was in a fog. And now we are talking about whether or not she`s a victim of abuse. What happened to Travis Alexander?

RANDY ZELIN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s exactly what the defense wants to have happen here. They want the jury to forget about the victim. They want the jurors to focus on a couple of critical pieces, the domestic violence. And I will tell you I disagree with anyone who says that it`s bad for the defense that the judge is not going to let the defense expert tie in Travis to the domestic violence because this way the jurors can figure it out for themselves.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Who disagrees with that? Who disagrees with that?

ZELIN: Hearing nobody.

CLARK: He`s right. He`s right. He`s absolutely right.

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s see the panel. Let`s see the panel

CLARK: They feel -- they get invested.

FINDLING: Restate the statement. Restate it.

CLARK: He`s absolutely right, Jane. You let the jury get invested by letting them connect the dots. The experts have given them all the fodder to do it with and then they feel invested in the outcome and in the conclusion they draw. Of course he`s right.

ZELIN: I always liked Marcia.

LEIBERMAN: I think Juan Martinez -- I think Juan Martinez though is going to be able to use this expert to kind of connect the dots and argue that Jodi was the abuser. I think there`s more evidence pointing that way.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.

FINDLING: I think it`s a premature discussion because we really truly don`t know the limit. We`ve had a ruling a while back, correctly pointed out, but we don`t know the extent to which the judge is going to let this testimony go. I believe it`s going to go further than anybody imagined. I truly believe that.

It`s one thing to do a pre-trial ruling. But now that it`s a death penalty case and the guilty verdict, the second part sentencing -- in the future, you watch, she`s going to let it go further.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I have to correct you one thing. There`s no such thing as a premature discussion in my book.

All right. On the other side of the break, has the judge lost control of this trial? And we`re taking your calls.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTINEZ: So you weren`t going to put up with that either, were you?

ARIAS: Put up with what?

MARTINEZ: Well, what is it that we`re talking about here?

ARIAS: Which part would I put up with?

MARTINEZ: Were you going to put up with what we just talked about. Are you having problems understanding again what`s going on?

ARIAS: Sometimes because you go in circles.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Has the judge completely lost control of this case? She was on the stand for something like 18 days. One witness is on the stand for six days and now we`ve gone home because Jodi supposedly has a migraine.

Marcia Clark, former prosecutor, author of the amazing book "Guilt by Degrees". Do you think she`s just lost control of this?

CLARK: I think she`s one of the judges that runs scared of reversal on appeal. And I always have to say to that, look, you know, you enforce the rules of evidence and you make -- take your best shot. If you`re informed on the rules and what the law is, then you don`t have to worry about reversible error. By the way, you don`t get reversal unless you have a conviction.

I think when you have witnesses on the stand for eight, nine days at a time that`s a clear sign that rulings are not being made that should properly curtail the testimony because at some point it becomes cumulative. No one can talk about the same thing for that long with repeating themselves at some point.

And so rulings have to be made but she can make her own objection and say you`ve gone -- you`ve gone over this. This has been asked and answered. This has been done. Move on. She can limit it. And what the worry is, is that the jury gets buried in a lot of irrelevant detail and begins to forget what the critical evidence is, begins to lose thread. They get distracted. They also get aggravated. They get pissed off.

It`s a long time to take out of their lives for this case. I understand it`s a very important case. Don`t get me wrong. I`m not minimizing that. But there is a point after which the testimony is simply cumulative and they are getting distracted, confused and tired.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree with you. And in confusion there is reasonable doubt. They`re getting overwhelmed. We know more about Jodi Arias, everything from her prescriptions to God only knows what. And what does that have to do with Travis Alexander and why she killed him?

All right. On the other side, we`re going to talk to Jeff Gardere, clinical psychologist about how can you tell if somebody really has a migraine?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Jeff, how can you tell if somebody has a migraine?

JEFFREY GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST: Usually they may have blood shot eyes, flushing of the skin and some vomiting. But the real way to know is to have a physician check for increased blood pressure and, of course, rapid heart rate.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you think she has, yes or no?

GARDERE: I don`t know whether she has. You can fake it. That`s for sure.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Very good point, Dr. Jeff Gardere. You can fake a migraine.

Nancy Grace is up next.

END 

Jane Velez-Mitchell transcript March 26, 2013 (Jodi Arias trial videos)


Here is the full video from the Jodi Arias trial, March 26, 2013, along with the transcript from Issues with Jane Velez-Mitchell.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL
Defense Expert Speaks about Travis`s Childhood
Aired March 26, 2013 - 19:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell. Tonight, you will not miss a moment of testimony. Is a pattern emerging? Jodi Arias and her attorney matching their outfits, again. Yesterday, they were both wearing white. Today, they`re both wearing black. That`s two days in a row. We`ve seen it many times before. Why on earth is Jodi apparently copying her attorney?

Meantime, does Jodi Arias fit the pattern of a battered woman? Does victim Travis Alexander fit the profile of an abuser just because his parents were drug addicts? That`s what this defense expert right now on the stand seems to be implying. Imagine how upset Travis`s siblings in the front row must feel about that leak. They grew up in the same household.

Let`s debate it in a moment, but first, back to the court as battered woman expert Alyce LaViolette makes her case. Listen.

ALYCE LAVIOLETTE, BATTERED WOMEN EXPERT: But if your parents acted out a lot in front of you, you`re shaken up in a different way than when you don`t see them. If you see loving affection toward your parents and it`s consistent, you see that that`s how you treat somebody in a loving relationship.

I also remember my dad coming home from work and -- all right.

JENNIFER WILLMOTT, JODI`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Are you familiar with the term "chronic combat readiness"?

LAVIOLETTE: Yes.

WILLMOTT: What does that mean?

LAVIOLETTE: Chronic combat readiness is a term that was used in an article by Bruce Perry, who does a lot of work with children who have committed violent crimes and children who have grown up in abuse.

And what he says is that, if you live in an abusive household, that what you grow up with is the kind of situation, you`re living basically in a war zone. And if you live in a war zone, you have to be hyper-vigilant; you have to see the threat in things, because a lot of these kids grow up and they see things as threatening that the rest of us wouldn`t. They see -- they see a look or a tone or whatever that we might be unaffected by it that affects them in a way.

So chronic combat readiness is like the notion of living your life in a combat zone. If you grow up in a violent family and if you grow up from childhood in a violent family and you have a number of years in that violent family, then you`re flooded with stress hormones.

You`re -- you know, you`re -- you`re in fight versus flight a lot of the time, which means you`re not operating from your cortex as much. You`re operating from your reptilian brain. You`re operating from a place where your blood is rushing from your extremities, and you`re ready to fight.

And kids do a lot of things in that situation. I mean, I would suspect a lot of people I`ve worked with who bullied people came from violent families.

WILLMOTT: OK. And the men that you`ve worked with in all the years that you`ve done this, do you have an idea of percentage of these men that you`ve worked with who have come from traumatic childhoods or abusive childhood families?

LAVIOLETTE: My experience has been that almost everybody I`ve worked with has come from some sort of violent situation, and that could have been in foster care. It could have been with their parents. It could have been with their primary caregivers, and it could also be exacerbated by living in a violent neighborhood.

But the research was showing something like 60 percent to 70 percent. But that`s because most of the research was done before people really understood that they live in violence. In other words, they would say, "Well, you know, I -- that happened to me because I needed to be disciplined. So, you know, of course I had to be beaten, because I did something to deserve it." And so they didn`t define it as -- as violence. And it wasn`t until after they understood violence a little better.

So I would say it`s much closer to, you know -- we`re not supposed to say 100 percent to anything. So I won`t say 100 percent, but it`s closer to that.

And it depends, once again, on the degree to which somebody acts out in their own intimate relationship. The worst kinds of violence tend to be perpetrated by the people who`ve lived in the worst kinds of environments and grown up in those kinds of environments.

JUDGE SHERRY STEPHENS, PRESIDING OVER TRIAL: We will take the afternoon recess. Please be back in the designated area...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, they`re taking a recess while we debate what happened in court. You won`t miss a minute.

Now, this witness, the defense domestic violence expert, is implying that Travis Alexander, the victim, the guy who was stabbed 29 times, whose throat was slit ear-to-ear, he fit the pattern of an abuser because he had drug-addicted parents.

Listen to this expert`s descriptions, and we`ll debate it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAVIOLETTE: I don`t think you can live in a drug-addicted family with people who are violent and not be fearful.

You can be successful in your job. You can have a good job.

They get in a situation with their partner, and they`re thrown back to that powerlessness. That powerlessness is to get bigger and more powerful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. She never once mentions Travis Alexander by name, but it`s clear that she`s hinting at his upbringing. We know Travis lived with his parents until he was 12 years old. We know both of his parents were reportedly drug addicts. And they ultimately passed away, and he was eventually raised by his grandmother.

Now listen, Travis Alexander`s siblings, they grew up in the same home. They`re sitting there in the front row listening to all of this. How must they feel? What a leak.

Let`s debate it. Is she crossing the line? Let`s start with John Lieberman for the prosecution.

JON LIEBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: She`s doing what the defense does. That is, they`re going to continue victimizing the victim in this case until the bitter end.

But I think what`s going to happen, Jane -- and yes this expert is coming off as very credible on the stand with her concepts, but she hasn`t yet tied it back to Jodi and Travis. But what Mr. Martinez -- what Mr. Martinez is going to do on cross is he`s going to show that everything that this expert is describing describes Jodi Arias to a "T." And in fact, she was the abuser.

So I actually think this woman is going to turn out to be a star witness for the prosecution and help put Jodi behind bars.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Brian Silber for the defense.

BRIAN SILBER, ATTORNEY: Well, I think you can go either way. It really depends on the constitution of the jury. You know, if they`re still maintaining that open mind, then this is yet another question, another nail in the coffin, so to speak, that`s going to help them raise that reasonable doubt.

But if they`ve already lost this jury, they`re digging their hole deeper and deeper and deeper and making it utterly hard to get out of.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen, let me tell you something, my dad was an alcoholic. Yes, I`m a recovering alcoholic. On April 1, hopefully, I`ll have 18 years of sobriety, but I`m not an abuser.

I mean, to make the leap, Jordan Rose, attorney there in Phoenix, Arizona, because you grew up in a drug-addicted household that means that, oh, you`re likely to become an abuser. Isn`t that insulting all the members of Travis Alexander`s family? They`re sitting there. He has family members who are police officers, who are upstanding citizens. They`re not abusers.

JORDAN ROSE, ATTORNEY: Agreed. This is all implication. I mean, she is certainly a credible witness, but she`s testifying about things that -- she`s implying that Travis was abused. We have no testimony about that.

And in fact, I can`t wait until Juan Martinez gets up there and boom! He asks the question, "Do you have any evidence that Travis Alexander was abused in this way?" No! This is crazy.

And when he gets -- when the prosecutor is allowed to take this woman on, she is going to be completely diminished.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jon Lieberman.

LIEBERMAN: Not to mention, Jane, that, yes, she is a creditable witness, but in order to believe her concepts and how they tie back to Jodi, you have to believe Jodi`s story. Because all they have to show this alleged abuse by Travis is Jodi Arias`s story. And Jodi has proven...

SILBER: Yes, but here`s the issue.

LIEBERMAN: ... time and time -- let me finish...

SILBER: Here`s the real problem.

LIEBERMAN: Jodi has proven time and time again...

SILBER: And this is what we`ve all got to decide.

LIEBERMAN: ... liar. Let me finish.

SILBER: This is the real problem.

LIEBERMAN: Let me finish.

SILBER: You`re skirting the real issue.

(CROSSTALK)

LIEBERMAN: Jodi Arias is a liar. And so you cannot...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jodi Arias is a liar. Brian Silber.

SILBER: Listen, look, that`s all fine and dandy, we can sit here and talk about these details until the cows come home. But the bottom line is this. This prosecutor doesn`t have a kill shot.

At the end of the day, this is still a situation where we only have two people present, Jodi and Travis. And unless he can utterly decimate and destroy as a possibility her claim, there will always be reasonable doubt in this case...

LIEBERMAN: So you`re saying -- are you saying -- are you saying that acquittal is actually an option in this case?

SILBER: No. I think it`s going to go to manslaughter. Because the defense has laid out a case for manslaughter.

LIEBERMAN: No way.

SILBER: We know she killed him. There was a heated argument. And according to them, it was an argument provoked by the victim. You have to look at Arizona statute 13-1103 and 13-1104.

(CROSSTALK)

ROSE: But in Arizona law...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let`s have Jordan Rose. You`re there in Arizona. Arizona law. Go ahead.

ROSE: Look, look, Arizona requires that we prove that she used the amount of force necessary and to kill the guy she has to show that...

SILBER: That`s exactly the point. It can`t be rebutted. That`s exactly the point.

ROSE: There`s no way...

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me tell you something. I went, with the autopsy report in my hand, to John Jay College of Criminal Justice and talked to a lab expert, and we dissected the lab autopsy. You`re going to see it in a couple of minutes. Six inches across the throat, 1 1/2 inches deep. You`re going to see what that means about the force that was used by Jodi Arias in killing Travis Alexander.

More on the other side. More testimony. They`re coming out of their break. You won`t miss a minute.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: We`re always trying to top ourselves, like go a little bit farther than the last time. And usually he would come up with some creative ideas. So most of the time I was game for it.

KIRK NURMI, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Did you want to feel like you were raped?

ARIAS: No.

NURMI: He also says, "You`ll rejoice in being a whore."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRAVIS ALEXANDER, MURDER VICTIM (via phone): I`m going to tie you to a tree and put it in your (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

ARIAS (via phone): Oh my gosh. That is so debasing. I like it. I`m game for, like, almost everything you come up with. But you really are a wellspring of ideas. You are, like, quite the source.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Was she a victim of abuse, or was Jodi Arias engaging in consensual, kinky sex? And if she is a battered woman, why is she doing a headstand as she`s about to be arrested for murder. Is she making light of the situation? Is that how abused women behave?

Let`s go back into the courtroom as domestic violence expert Alyce LaViolette is the final witness for the defense.

STEPHENS: Please be seated. The record will show the presence of the jury, the defendant and counsel may continue.

WILLMOTT: Ms. LaViolette, I know that we talked about victims of abuse and how, in your practice, you`ve seen them not file police reports or not tell the doctors what actually happened. Have you ever seen situations of what happens when these victims of abuse come to trial to testify?

LAVIOLETTE: It`s...

JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: Objection.

STEPHENS: Approach.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow, that was quick. Well, this is the whole argument over why Jodi has no proof whatsoever beyond her own words that she was physically abused by Travis.

So I want to go to Jean Casarez. You`ve been following this. You`re in court in Phoenix, Arizona. She did offer no proof, whatsoever. She didn`t have a police report. She didn`t have a temporary restraining order or restraining order. She didn`t even write about it in her journal. But this woman, this defense domestic violence expert, is trying to say that`s normal?

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, TRUTV`S "IN SESSION": Right. She`s saying that most abusers don`t go to the police department. They don`t go to the hospital. If they have to go to the hospital, they say, "Oh, I fell down" or they blame themselves.

But you`re right, there`s no evidence that any physical abuse took place. The closest thing are to that are the journal entries, but they don`t show a state of mind of someone that just had been a victim of physical violence. But it`s up to this expert to show the jury that she was that victim.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Selin Darkalstanian, you`ve been in court. This has to be so upsetting for Travis`s sibling. They grew up in the same household, and this woman is implying that, because their parents were drug addicts and they had no choice, in that they were brought into this household, that somehow that makes them prone to become abusers. How do they feel, do you think?

SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, HLN PRODUCER: Today was particularly difficult to hear that and watch them sitting in the front row. Remember, they`ve been here every single day of the trial. They alternate between the sisters and brothers. Three of them are always there daily.

But to watch them, because today they weren`t just talking about Travis, and, you know, dragging their brother`s name through the mud, but they were talking about both their parents, who are both now deceased. So you can understand why it was so difficult for them. At one point, one of the sisters looked really upset. You can tell she`d been crying earlier in the day, as she walked back and forth.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, coming out of sidebar. Let`s go back into court and see what`s next.

WILLMOTT: Many women, victims of abuse?

LAVIOLETTE: Yes, I have.

WILLMOTT: And you`ve said that you`ve counseled these women, as well? Is that right?

LAVIOLETTE: Yes, I have.

WILLMOTT: And in speaking with them, have they talked to you about whether or not they`re able or have been willing to make police reports or report their abuser to the police?

LAVIOLETTE: Yes, they have.

WILLMOTT: And -- and have they talked to you about whether or not they have been willing to seek medical treatment when their abuser has harmed them in some way?

LAVIOLETTE: Yes, they`ve talked to me about that.

WILLMOTT: And have they talked to you about when they`ve been called to testify?

LAVIOLETTE: Yes.

WILLMOTT: Is that a yes?

LAVIOLETTE: I`m sorry.

WILLMOTT: And when they talk to you about these things, what do they say about police reports?

LAVIOLETTE: Many of the women don`t make police reports. Some of the ones that do change their minds when the police actually come out, and they might change the story if they`ve called 911 when they come back. Some of the women actually follow through. It sort of depends on where they are in that whole progression...

WILLMOTT: Of the relationship?

LAVIOLETTE: Of the relationship. But, some of the women absolutely follow through with the police report.

WILLMOTT: And then have they talked to you about, if they followed through with the police report, have they talked to you about what happens if they`re called to testify against their abuser?

LAVIOLETTE: Yes. Many of them recant. I think we have about -- this is what I`ve been told by the court, that there are about 80 percent...

MARTINEZ: Objection (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

STEPHENS: Sustained.

WILLMOTT: Have you worked with the courts before?

LAVIOLETTE: Yes, I have.

WILLMOTT: And when you worked with the courts, what have you done?

LAVIOLETTE: Well, we had a domestic violence court in Long Beach. So the judge would meet with us on and off. I have consulted on some cases. I`m not sure, are you talking about with...

WILLMOTT: Well, in order to have knowledge about -- you were going to give us, I think, a number or some sort of -- what happens when women recant. How do you have that knowledge?

LAVIOLETTE: I have that knowledge because I`ve talked not only to people who run battered women shelters, but also because I know some of the judges or I knew some of the judges. We had a domestic violence court. And the judge is in Sedona now. She moved, and so we don`t have that court anymore.

But when we had it, we had it for eight years. And they gave us information about what they saw, as did the shelters, talk about what they had seen and the victim advocates, because there were victim advocates in the court.

WILLMOTT: And -- and then...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re going to take a brief pause. Is Jodi Arias`s life in the hands of this final defense witness? How is she going over with the jury? Apparently, they`re very attentive, and they`re taking in all of her hypothetical anecdotes. She is yet to mention the words "Jodi" or "Travis."

A short break, and then we are back with more testimony on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What motive is there? A jealousy issue?

ARIAS: But I wouldn`t -- I wouldn`t even say it was jealous. You know what I`m saying? Maybe Travis was jealous.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s not what everybody says. I don`t know if he was jealous, but they believe you were absolutely obsessed. Obsessed is the word that they use. That`s the word I hear from everybody. Fatal attraction.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: He had a list of fantasies that he wanted to fulfill. He wanted to do the mile high, which we never did. He wanted to pull off of a freeway on a remote highway somewhere and have sex on the hood of the car, which we didn`t do. But we, he also wanted to have sex on the freeway while driving, which we did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is Jodi Arias an obsessed diabolical murderess? There she is putting on make-up behind bars. Or is she the victim of abuse at the hands of the man she killed, Travis Alexander? That`s what the final witness for the defense, Alyce LaViolette, is arguing right now. Let`s resume testimony. We`re back in the court.

WILLMOTT: And then that information plus you speaking with these women yourself, right?

LAVIOLETTE: Yes.

WILLMOTT: And so, what happens when these women get to court? You said they recant. What does that mean?

LAVIOLETTE: It means that, oftentimes, and I would just like to say that frequently, there`s a long period of time between when a case is filed and when it gets to court. And so it might be a month. It could be two months before it actually gets into the court process. And during that time, if the couple stays together, many of them have reconciled. So, you could...

WILLMOTT: What happens when a couple reconciles, then, with regard to the woman wanting to testify?

LAVIOLETTE: She doesn`t want to testify, because she doesn`t want her partner to lose his job or she doesn`t want that on his record.

And in California, there are a lot of fees associated with -- with a proceeding. There`s penal code 273.5, which is called injury to a spouse. And if you plead "nolo contendre," that you`re not contesting it or you are found guilty of 273.5, you have to do 52 weeks in a batterers intervention program, a minimum of 52 weeks. You have to pay a fine to a battered women`s program. You have to pay court fines for going through the court process. You have to do community service, and depending on what you do depends on how much community service you have to do.

And you also are on probation for three years. It can be reduced. You can file to have it reduced to two years, but you`re on probation for a period of time. During that one-year period, you also have to come back to court every quarter with a court report from your program to show what you`re doing and how you`re progressing in that program.

WILLMOTT: And so how does that affect women whether they recant or not?

LAVIOLETTE: It affects the family financially. It also affects the women, depending on how angry the men are that they have to go through this process.

And in my group, some of the men are very angry and blaming their partners for going -- being stuck in court, being stuck in a program for a while. That sort of thing.

But, beyond that, for many of the men, there`s a relief in being in the program, actually. And -- but they still have to pay fines. They still have to pay fees for the group every week.

And in California, we do a sliding scale, which means we have to serve people on a range of incomes. So, there`s usually an opportunity for somebody to get help and to be able to afford it. But, it is -- it is financially sometimes a burden on the family to go through that.

WILLMOTT: And so how often, based on...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, we`re going to pause for a second. This defense expert explaining that abusive partners often reconcile before the men can be fully prosecuted.

On the other side of the break, more testimony. And I went to an expert to dissect the autopsy report. What does it mean that she slit Travis`s throat? On the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTINEZ: And you enjoyed the Tootsie Pops and the Pop Rocks. Correct? You think that the braids are hot, don`t you?

ARIAS: I think cute is more appropriate.

ALEXANDER (via phone): I love the braids.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ESTEBAN FLORES, POLICE DETECTIVE: There`s no doubt in my mind that you did this. None. So you can go until you`re blue in the face and tell me you weren`t there and you had nothing to do with it. I don`t believe you. I want to know why. And it`s killing me inside that I don`t know why.

JODI ARIAS, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: There`s no reason for it. There`s no reason why. There`s no reason I would ever want to hurt him.

FLORES: There`s no way anybody else --

ARIAS: He never raped me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. After lying repeatedly, she ultimately agreed, yes, I did kill him after he lunged at me. And there she is in court describing "lunge". She has no proof whatsoever beyond her own words and her demonstrations that Travis was ever physically violent or abusive with her.

Nevertheless the final defense witness is arguing that most battered women don`t have any proof, all they have is their word.

Let`s listen in to Alyce LaViolette try to make that case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENNIFER WILLMOTT, DEFENSE ATTORNEYFOR JODI ARIAS: These women they can`t.

ALYCE LAVIOLETTE, DEFENSE EXPERT WITNESS: The estimate is about 80 percent of the time.

WILLMOTT: Ok. So if they`re -- so even if they are able to get to the point where they are able to make a report and not change their mind when the police comes, once they get to court, 80 percent of the time, these women are actually taking it back?

LAVIOLETTE: That`s the estimate that I have been given. The only thing I would say is that for some of the women that the court process has been very difficult for them and they don`t feel they have gotten supported when they have, for them, stuck their necks out. And so the ability for them to then go forward and, you know, push or to report a second time is diminished because depending on what happens the first time.

WILLMOTT: Does that go back to the feeling that an abused victim might have that no one is going to believe her if she hey reports it?

LAVIOLETTE: It goes back to not only feeling believed, but feeling blamed because adult female victims are oftentimes blamed. You know, child victims are seen as helpless child victims. But adults are oftentimes -- their victimization is not recognized in the same way. They are seen as more culpable. So, there`s a lot of judgment.

And it depends on how you feel you are treated in the court. How you feel you are treated by the original police officers that come out. In many cities, there`s a domestic violence unit and people are specially trained. And they go out and they have what are called DAR teams, Domestic Abuse Response Teams. They actually go out and really take an interview and do that kind of thing and give resources to people.

But if there are children involved, they also will send out a child abuse worker to respond with the kids. So if there are children involved, they have to send somebody out. They are trying to address this in a more holistic way. So there`s more support for families or individuals with this domestic violence.

WILLMOTT: Ok. When you have someone come to your men`s group, do you do some sort of an intake or an interview with them?

LAVIOLETTE: Yes, I do.

WILLMOTT: And what do you do? Who do you interview?

LAVIOLETTE: In my groups, I do something that is unusual. And it`s because of the work I did in the shelter, because I worked in the shelter, I knew more of the whole story initially because I would have the women and children in the shelter and I knew what happened to them. Sometimes we would have medical records or police records but we`d also have the women and children that were interviewed.

So, when I would do my initial assessment with the men who were in relationship to those women, often times the stories were very, very different. And so I thought it`s very important for me to be able to do my work well and to really have a picture of what`s going on and sort of assess the level of dangerousness. It`s important for me to be able to interview the victim.

So, what I do is, if there`s no protective order, and the couple is still together, I invite the victim to come into the intake, but I see them separately. So I get -- and if the victim does not want to come in, if the survivor does not want to come in, then I try to do an interview over the phone because I want to get a bigger picture about what`s going on. I generally will not get it from the person who is coming into my program because there`s a lot of shame attached to telling me, you know, about what happened.

Actually, Lenore Walker used to say -- you know, the old saying, if there are two stories, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Lenore would say if there are two stories and there`s n domestic violence, the truth is worst than either of them because everybody is minimizing and denying. So even in that kind of a situation, I find that people play down what`s going on.

WILLMOTT: So, do you find out --

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We are going to pause for a moment. One of the most controversial things this defense domestic violence expert said today was that hypothetically -- she didn`t mention Travis Alexander, the victim by name -- but she said hypothetically if you grow up in a household with parents who are addicts, you have -- you get the pattern of an abuser. You are more likely to explode.

Travis Alexander`s siblings who grew up in the same household are sitting there listening to this. Imagine how they must feel to be painted with that broad brush. Let`s go to Shanna Hogan, the author of "Picture Perfect" a book on this case; first of all, what do you know about the household that Travis Alexander grew up in, vis-a-vis this claim by the defense expert?

SHANNA HOGAN, AUTHOR, "PICTURE PERFECT": Yes, up until the age of 10, he did have a very difficult childhood. His parents were on drugs. And they were abusive mentally and physically. His dad was not really in his life for the first ten years. Eventually his dad did get cleaned up, and was off drugs and actually died in a car accident at the age of 20 -- or on Travis` 20th birthday.

But after the age of 10, he moved in with his grandmother and the grandmother took in the children. He got introduced to the Mormon faith. And actually had a good life after that and a normal, decent home. So he actually saw both sides -- the abusive home and also the functional, happy, wholesome household.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Shanna, how do you think his siblings feel sitting there? They grew up in the same household. Essentially she`s saying that they, too, would have a greater propensity towards becoming an abuser. Is that fair?

HOGAN: You know, I don`t think that`s fair at all. Like the older children in the Alexander household, they had issues as they got into their adulthood. But after that, they all got their lives together. And they have children and they are close with each other. They have a nice life. These are good people. And to say that is really wrong to kind of paint that with a broad brush, like you said.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And would anything justify what Jodi Arias did to Travis Alexander? She slit his throat.

I went to an expert to examine exactly what that means with the autopsy report. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Certain facts are not in dispute. Travis Alexander was stabbed 29 times, his throat was slit. But Jodi Arias has not really given details about how she did that because she claims she was in a fog during that part of the killing.

Well we`re not taking "I don`t remember" for an answer. We came here to John J. College of Criminal Justice to talk to the chief of laboratory services armed with an autopsy about how that would actually go down.

What, essentially does this mean in terms of what was done to Travis Alexander`s neck?

DR. DAVID WARUNEK, JOHN J. COLLEGE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE: Ok. We are talking about a wound, six inches in length and one and a half inches in depth.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: One and a half inches -- this is my neck.

WARUNEK: The autopsy report says it`s an oblique cut. So that means that your knife, you are not shoving it into the throat, but you`re going in at an angle from one side to the other. The severity of the wound and the depth of the wound severed the trachea. And if it were in the area of the larynx or the voice box it would render the victim unable to utter or scream.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s possible that he experience tremendous pain for 30 seconds to a minute.

WARUNEK: It`s possible. With rapid blood loss, you`re going to pass out. This would be a very painful injury.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WILLMOTT: She knew that the one thing that calmed his temper the quickest is sex.

So I keep telling him, it`s ok, I`ll fix it, don`t worry. Travis grabbed her and spun her around. Afraid that he was going to hurt her, Jodi was actually relieved when all he did was bend her over the desk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. Were they involved in a kinky, but consensual relationship. Or was Jodi Arias the victim of abuse. Is Travis the victim? Is he being victimized again?

Let`s go back to the courtroom and listen to this domestic violence expert who is trying to save Jodi`s life. She wrote, by the way, a book called "It Can Happen to Anyone: Why Battered Women Stay". Let`s listen in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLMOTT: So do you find out what the men who are coming in to ask you for help that they play down what they have done or what`s going on?

LAVIOLETTE: Yes, for instance, I might have somebody I`ll ask a question about substance abuse or drugs or alcohol, a problem in your family. And that`s not where I start, but that a question that I will ask. And you know, one of the men said no, you know, we are social drinkers and we have, you know, a couple of martini`s a night.

And so I ask his partner, his wife, the same thing and I said are drugs or alcohol, you know, a problem in your family and she said absolutely. I said well what`s a problem, drugs or alcohol? She said alcohol. I said why is that a problem for you? She said well because he says we have one or two drinks a night, but his drinks are like in a vat. So when we have one or two drinks, it`s like he has three drinks for every one. So it`s like he`s having six martinis instead of three.

WILLMOTT: So does that give you a bigger picture when you`re interviewing both?

LAVIOLETTE: It absolutely gives me a bigger picture.

WILLMOTT: And when you are interviewing the woman or the victim of abuse, do you find that that person tends to minimize what is actually happening in the home?

LAVIOLETTE: Most of the time, the women are protective of the men that they are with. and they are very cautious about telling me, for instance I`m a mandated reporter so if they report child abuse, I have to report it. So, I tell them the limits of my confidentiality that these are the things that I`m going to have to report. I have to report child abuse, if that`s occurring and I have to report a danger to self or others. So if there`s and imminent a threat, so somebody comes into the office and says I`m going to, you know, seriously injure or hurt somebody, I have to do something about that.

So I tell them the limits of my confidentiality and then we talk. It`s a very, you know, it`s very conversational. I don`t have like a lot of papers and fill things out. I try to just have a conversation with people. But, I ask them questions -- I ask them both the same kinds of questions to sort of see if there`s a great difference in the stories.

If there`s a big difference in the stories, I have a bigger problem. If the stories match up a little bit, it`s usually because both people are feeling like they can tell the truth a little more and there`s not as much shame as --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We are taking a brief pause. Let`s go to our special guest of the day. Mikal Ann Dillon, a retired respiratory therapist who has been in court day after day. Are you buying this argument by the defense that, oh, Travis was -- he fit the pattern of an abuser and she is a classic domestic abuse victim? What is your theory?

MIKAL ANN DILLON, HAS WATCHED TRIAL IN COURTROOM: No. I just -- I don`t buy it at all. One of the reasons I wanted to do this interview is the defensive wound on Travis` hand -- excuse me -- is a classic defensive wound of somebody who is being attacked. There`s no way possible that this man can suffer this amount of damage when you look at his legs and the bruising. I believe at one time he was even kicking her to get her away from him.

The amount of damage that is -- that he occurred to his body, there`s no way possible that she was fighting for her life, he was fighting for his.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You have been looking at this jury day after day. Very briefly, do you think they are going to find her guilty of murder one? Yes or no?

DILLON: I want to say no.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What? Oh, that`s a shocker. You don`t think they are going to find her guilty? Ok. You think murder two, manslaughter?

DILLON: I think it`s going to be a hung jury.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, my gosh.

DILLON: I hope I`m wrong. I hope I`m wrong. I want it murder one.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t want you to mention any jurors` names. We don`t want -- or you know, identities or descriptions but you`re saying you`re seeing that some people are buying the defense?

DILLON: Not very many but there`s a -- I spend most of my time during court watching the jurors. That`s why I came here because at home, I couldn`t see that. so I spend my time watching the jurors. And I have a theory about why somebody might even hang the jury, and that`s for the notoriety of being the person to hang the jury.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we`ll have to see. We want to thank you for joining us. Mikal Ann Dillon, get back into court there. We have more testimony on the other side.

Stay right there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KURT NURMI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Would it be fair to say that he had an all-access pass to your body?

ARIAS: I had made a lot of bad decisions when it came to Travis.

If I`m found guilty, I`m paralyzed.

I did things that provoked him.

NURMI: You had sex behind closed doors and he beat you behind closed doors.

SHERRY STEPHENS, PRESIDING JUDGE: Did he force you to do things you didn`t want to do?

ARIAS: He didn`t physically force me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAVIOLETTE: A lot of women have no proof of physical abuse because they haven`t reported. You`re not wanting to get your partner in trouble so you don`t make the report. You don`t tell anybody. You don`t -- and you lie about what happened in a medical report.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. This defense domestic violence expert saying Jodi is classic. She didn`t keep any record. She didn`t call the police. She has no proof whatsoever beyond her own words and this finger demonstration a lot of people didn`t buy that she was abused by Travis Alexander. Of course, the prosecutor says she`s a big, fat liar.

Let`s debate it with our sidebar panel starting with Jordan Rose for the prosecution in Phoenix.

JORDAN ROSE, ATTORNEY: All this attempt to make Jodi into the victim ignores the fact -- and I think the jury will see -- that if you`re a normal person and someone comes at you with deadly force and you have to kill them, you immediately call 911. You say, hey, get over here. Somebody just tried to kill me. I don`t know if he`s dead, if he`s alive. But get over here. You don`t drive to Utah and go, you know, snuggle with the boyfriend.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Brian. Brian.

BRIAN SILBER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`m sorry, that ignores everything that we know about victims of domestic violence. And as the only one here who`s been a domestic violence prosecutor, I can tell you there`s no likelihood she would call the police in every single instance. The bottom line is this case is going towards a manslaughter, and that`s what`s going to happen here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Jon Leiberman.

JON LEIBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Let me tell you this. I sit on the board of the National Domestic Violence Registry. I have interviewed dozens of victims. And once the perceived threat is taken out of the mix, almost to a T, they are up front and tell the truth to police.

SILBER: Oh, yes. Give me a courtroom and try a case.

LEIBERMAN: Let me finish. Do not interrupt me again. When Jodi Arias -- let me finish --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, all right.

SILBER: Come on. You sit on a board. Please.

Leiberman: When Jodi Arias killed Travis -- she took the threat out of the mix. And she had nothing to worry about anymore. Yet it took her months to come up with this self-defense, battered woman defense. That is the fact here. And that is not how victims generally behave.

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`ve got to take a short break. We`ve got to take a short break.

We`ve got breaking news on the other side involving Jodi Arias feeling faint in court. Why there`s a break?

Stay right there. We`ll tell you about it on the other side.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: More odd behavior by defendant Jodi Arias. She continues to mimic her attorney`s outfits. Meantime, I`m just learning -- just coming in on my Blackberry. Courtroom sources advise that one of the recesses today was related to Jodi needing a break because she was feeling faint.

The judge had to obtain permission from the sheriff`s office so that Jodi Arias could get a protein bar. Apparently they`re only allowed two meals a day. And somehow she felt faint and she got approval for a protein bar. Go figure.

All right. We`re going to be back with more testimony tomorrow. Nancy Grace up next with more testimony. Bye.

END 

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