Jodi Arias as Stalker: Dr. Drew special on stalking with expert Michelle Ward (videos, transcripts)
One of the aspects of the Jodi Arias trial that didn't come into play as heavily as it could have was stalking. Though prosecutor Juan Martinez introduced testimony that Jodi Arias stalked Travis Alexander, the defense countered that they had a mutual relationship. One area of the Jodi Arias case that has never been fully addressed is whether Travis Alexander knew Jodi Arias was coming to his house
|Jodi Arias refused to let Travis Alexander go|
When Travis Alexander began seeing another women, both had their tires slashed. It was never proved whether Jodi Arias was the one who slashed them, therefore the testimony was not introduced in trial. If Jodi Arias did slash Travis Alexander's tires, the behavior could definitely be viewed as a precursor for her slashing his throat and stabbing him 29 times.
You may view the Dr. Drew special "Stalked" that explores Jodi Arias as a stalker in the video player below. Thanks to "Whatchatalkinabout" on YouTube for sharing these videos.
View the full transcript below.
Jodi Arias was found guilty of first-degree murder for the June 4, 2008, murder of her lover Travis Alexander. A jury failed to unanimously determine her sentence making way for a new jury to become impaneled in July.
Jodi Aria faces the death penalty.
Stalked!: Dr. Drew on Call Special
Aired May 30, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, stalking.
MICHELLE WARD, STALKING EXPERT: Jodi`s behavior is textbook stalking.
PINSKY: What is it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To be able to look on Facebook or Twitter for a few days or at a vulnerable moment is a whole lot different than somebody crawling in a doggy door and sleeping on someone`s sofa.
PINSKY: Are you a stalker?
Ladies, have you ever done a drive-by to check on a boyfriend or somebody you`re interested in or somebody? Come on.
And was Jodi crazy in love? Or just plain crazy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know how she is that disconnected that she thinks she can actually work a guy when the punch line is you die.
PINSKY: Stalking, the danger, the damage, the deadly consequences.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening, everybody.
Tonight, we are talking stalking.
My co-host is psychologist and a stalking expert, Michelle Ward.
And listen to this, every minute in this country, 14 of every 1,000 people are followed, harassed, focused on, frightened, or in some way bothered by unwanted attention. Stalking per se is a crime.
Jodi Arias was a stalker.
One of the victim`s greatest fears is uncertainty, not knowing what might happen next. Got to wonder, did that happen to Travis Alexander?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DETECTIVE: The motive is there. The jealousy issue.
JODI ARIAS, CONVICTED MURDERER: But I wasn`t -- I wouldn`t even say it was jealous. I mean, there may have been some jealousy there, but I think if anyone.
DETECTIVE: Then what is it? What caused this?
ARIAS: I think if, you know, if anyone, maybe Travis was jealous, but --
DETECTIVE: That`s not what everybody else says.
911 CALLER: There`s a girl that`s been stalking him. OK, so last weekend, his stalker, he told her he never wanted to see her again. He had a big confrontation.
911 CALLER: Well, several times she slit people`s tires that were parked in front of his house.
Does anyone know Jodi`s last name?
DETECTIVE: She called me, crying hysterically when she decided to move to Mesa, Arizona. She snuck up to his house and she looked in the window and she saw him on the couch with another woman.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She would sneak into his house through the doggy door and sleep on his couch at night without him knowing.
DETECTIVE: You are absolutely obsessed. Obsessed is the word that they use. That`s the word I hear from everybody.
Fatal attraction. I don`t know how many times I heard that. Look at Jodi. She had to have done this, or she had someone to do it for her.
There`s not one person that says anything else.
PINSKY: Michelle, there`s a lot to be talked about here. And we will get into this in the program.
But one thing that stands out to me is the investigator saying, Travis was the one who was jealous, and he says that`s not what everybody else says.
Is denial part of this syndrome?
WARD: Well, absolutely. I mean, and projecting as well. We get a lot of people saying oh, I`m the victim of stalking. It`s called false victimization. We get that here, too.
PINSKY: You mean the person breaking through the door, through the doggy door, laying on the couch and sleeping, that person`s saying I`m a victim.
WARD: It can be. And I think that`s what Jodi was doing here.
And look, Jodi`s behavior is textbook stalking. Very typical. And you see, it was -- it was jealousy that kind of pushed her over the edge a little bit. And that fuels the fire.
Anytime you have somebody who`s eliciting some stalking behavior, jealousy is absolutely going to put the stalker over the edge.
PINSKY: Interesting. Also, so, are you a stalker? If, say, you`ve ever looked up an ex online, sent them an unwanted e-mail, gone maybe to their favorite hang out spot, hoping to see him or her. Well, you might be a stalker.
I asked my panel if they are guilty of stalking. Watch this.
PINSKY: Ladies, have you ever done a drive by to check on a boyfriend or somebody you`re interested in or somebody, come on. There`s one.
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: I might have in college.
CHRISTI PAUL. HLN ANCHOR: Of course in college, when we were young.
PINSKY: It`s sort of an adolescent behavior. Cheryl, I`m stunned that you`ve never done this.
CHERYL ARUTT, PSYCHOLOGIST: Really? Really?
JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM: So we`re all stalkers, is that it?
WALSH: Can I ask Cheryl a question? Have you shown up at a bar or a club where you knew the guy might be, but he didn`t know were you going to show up and you made it like you just ran into him.
ARUTT: Yes. I haven`t driven by, but I have put myself in situations where I was hoping to see somebody.
PINSKY: Ladies and gentlemen, I rest my case.
WALSH: Are stalkers?
PINSKY: That is stalking behavior.
HUTT: No, we`re trackers.
PINSKY: No. And, Jenny, you`re trying to scare me a little bit, Jenny. But the fact is that people now do that through social media. They do it in all kinds of ways. And it`s a primitive impulse, and I think everything can kind of relate to, but a lot of people have done it. Listen, it`s when -- it`s when relationships are too intense.
When they`re too intense, when people confuse intensity for love and the thing fractures and people don`t know how to deal with the comings and goings of intimate contact. That`s when people stalk. That`s why it`s adolescent. That`s when they`re learning those things.
What`s that, Wendy?
WALSH: But, Dr. Drew, I wouldn`t call it stalking. I really like the idea of calling it tracking because the truth is, once you`ve had that attachment, it doesn`t just die right away. There is a grieving period, there is a mourning period.
So for us healthy people on your behavior bureau, to be able to look on Facebook or Twitter for a few days or at a vulnerable moment is a whole lot different than crawling through a doggy door and sleeping on someone`s sofa.
HUTT: A little bit cuckoo for coco puffs and sharing that with your friends and letting them know that you`re wigging out, and having them help you and go with you at the bar or the club, and making sure they know when you`re driving by, then it`s not as sort of weird, because it`s not on the --
PAUL: Is that OK? Am I being crazy? And you bring me in?
HUTT: Sure, you ask. You try to check in.
PINSKY: Trying to get that support so I work on through this because I know I`m out of control. As opposed to friends calling your parents in the middle of the night saying oh, my God, Jenny`s tracking has gone off track. It`s what happened with Jodi. Her parents were calling.
HUTT: I would also say with this whole --
ARUTT: The thing, I think we should think about that this is the first time I`ve ever heard stalking talked about in terms of the victim`s fear reaction.
PINSKY: You know why? Cheryl, I`ll tell you why. I found out why. Because apparently in the law, for it to be a legal issue, the victim has to be afraid. I agree with you from the clinical standpoint, the fear comes way late. You`re not even aware that somebody is talking to you until way late in the game. And then you can`t believe it, I`ve been stalked.
And then, later, and then you think oh, my God. Then you get afraid. Then you call the cops. That`s way down the line.
ARUTT: Let`s look at gender, because for a girl to be afraid of a guy who`s bigger and stronger, that`s one thing. But a guy who want does keep hooking up with somebody, you know, the thing is that for him to reach a level where he was actually afraid of her, it would have to override the turn on, the libido.
PINSKY: In this case, I agree.
HUTT: That`s the whole crazy girl, crazy sex mentality.
PINSKY: I agree. However, he might think she was going to go public or tell his friends about what she knew about what they`ve been doing. There could be that fear too.
PINSKY: All right. Michelle, there you go. Four beautiful, highly- trained, intelligent professionals, all four stalkers, or stalking behavior.
WARD: Well -- yes. But part of it is normal.
PINSKY: That`s what we want to talk about. What is normal, and what is not?
WARD: Adolescence is really murky. You have these crushes. And you don`t really know how to handle these emotions. Often, it`s the first time you`ve felt love.
So, when you`re an adolescent, it`s OK. But the internet has brought an extra element to this.
WARD: We used to stalk by looking up yearbooks and riding our bikes past, I did --
PINSKY: Or calling and hanging up.
WARD: Lots of that, before caller ID.
PINSKY: Excuse me, lots of that, Michelle?
PINSKY: I`m just saying.
WARD: I did.
PINSKY: OK. But how does someone -- let`s say someone out there is sort of checking on people`s Facebook. And it feels uncomfortable to them. They`re compulse to do it. They do it a lot more than they want.
How do they know they`re in trouble?
WARD: Well, you know you`re in trouble if you can`t control it. And if the person you`re cyber stalking knows you`re doing and is uncomfortable. And you really nailed it in that last segment. It is a legal issue in terms of the victim`s perception.
If you are harassing somebody, you`re stalking them.
PINSKY: So, if this person feels there`s an unwanted contact, even if they`re not afraid?
WARD: Well, in some states you have to have the fear element. In others, you don`t. It just depends, I mean, frankly, if the states changed their legislation once somebody`s died. It`s horrible.
All right. We`ve got a lot more to talk about. This is a very complicated topic. I know you`ve all done some of this. Somebody may be doing it right now.
So, next, crazy in love? Or just crazy? When does an attraction become a fatal attraction? What has become dangerous?
And later, the childhoods of Travis and Jodi. What about their upbringing, perhaps, led them to one another and this unhealthy relationship?
Be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE: If you didn`t want to be tied up to a tree, why would you go up and look for a place where he could do that?
ARIAS: We were looking for a place out in the woods, nature, to somehow carry out this little red riding hood fantasy.
TRAVIS ALEXANDER, VICTIM: I`m going to tie you to a tree and put it in your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) by the way.
ARIAS: What`s that?
ALEXANDER: I`m going to tie you to a tree and put it in your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) by the way.
ARIAS: Oh, my gosh. That is so debasing. I like it.
ALEXANDER: I`m going to zip tie your arms around the tree, blindfold you and put a camera on a timer while I`m (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you.
It takes creativity to top ourselves.
ARIAS: I know it does, we`ve gotten our way creative in the past.
ALEXANDER: You cannot say I don`t know how to work the booty.
ARIAS: Oh, never mind, you do know how to work the booty.
ALEXANDER: For example, I`m not the freaking tossed salad type to be honest. But I would do it -- I love doing it with you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We are back.
I`m back with psychologist and stalking expert Michelle Ward.
We are talking stalking because Jodi has really put this front and center. She is a stalker.
And I know some of you may be stalkers out there, may have experienced this, may be the victim. This gets people thinking about it.
So, we want to do a show where we really think carefully about this.
So when did Jodi cross the line with Travis Alexander? Could people be addicted to one another, and could that attribute to stalking.
I spoke to my panel about unhealthy attachments that get crazy. Watch this.
PINSKY: Cheryl, I`m going to talk with you about the little red riding hood fantasy. First of all, that sounds a little bit aggressive. But I`m wondering, Christi and I were talking off-the-air here about how there were two Travises.
And let me go for a little second here and say this. That many times when kids are abused, technically if they`re sexually abused, they`re sort of cut off a part of themselves, they have a bad self that they do bad things with bad people, and they have a good self when they don`t show any of that to anybody else.
Do you agree with that this maybe what`s going on here with Travis?
ARUTT: It may be, Dr. Drew, what`s going on with Travis. He got to act out all of the kind of edgy kind of freaky stuff that he wanted to do with Jodi who could look like somebody who participated in the church and did all that stuff. But at the same time, she was someone that he could play with and bring out this other part of himself.
You know, if the two of them were adults and consenting and no murder or anything happened, I don`t think we`d be talking about any of this.
PINSKY: Right. That`s interesting. It`s not that it`s so bizarre, maybe unsavory. We may not like that. We have to look it up in the urban dictionary to find out what the hell they`re talking about. But it`s not necessarily pathological.
Wendy, do you agree with that? And do you agree with my theory of disavowed aspects of self being acted out by Travis?
WALSH: I agree with both things. But there`s something else I want to point out about this and other phone sex conversations that I`ve heard between them. You know, I`m grown up woman. I`ve had some much better phone sex in my life.
Where is the affect? Where is the actual feeling? I don`t feel like they`re actually being aroused. I feel like they`ve disassociated in this phone call and they`re really sort of like children just laying out a plot. She`s kind of giggling. He doesn`t sound aroused. He doesn`t sound aroused while they`re talking.
So, where is the affect in their voice, and why have they disassociated in this phone call? It`s very strange to me.
PINSKY: Well, first of all, Wendy, I`m sort of overwhelmed by your comment.
PINSKY: Let me start with that. And then I think you`re on to something, though. And, again, people that disavow feelings and parts of themselves do disassociate and I think you`re picking up on that.
Jenny, all the clinicians are sitting here and talking to me. Help us, you have a relationship show on Sirius.
PINSKY: Help us take this into lay language.
HUTT: This is what I think. You keep saying disavowed behavior, blah blah blah. I think we don`t know what goes on most of the time behind closed doors with people. People get into some freaky kinds of sex. And I could explain tossed salad if you need me too, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Jenny, thank you for that. But I just, I`m trying to deal with what Wendy said, still. I`m going to take --
HUTT: Wait, wait. Wendy is right. But Wendy is right. There is this weird sort of not hot thing in that phone sex. It`s not hot.
HUTT: And I certainly, again, don`t feel like Jodi was being abused by Travis. Jodi was choosing to do this. Frankly, if somebody said to me I`m going to put this there and I wasn`t interested in that there, that wouldn`t be there.
PINSKY: Again, I`m following. I`m following everybody.
PINSKY: Jenny, and so your point is that she is consenting. She is a part of this.
PINSKY: I say, I say because this guy was so badly abused as a kid he is prone to getting sucked into something like this. And once he`s in, because that part of himself, he tonight even really understand is there, she`s gotten that out. And it`s just operates, and he can`t get out of there.
WALSH: So you think that she, is she the one that you are saying -- do you think she`s the one that`s perpetuating this whole thing?
PINSKY: I think it`s a perfect storm. I think the two of them together created this incredibly uber intense sex addicted kind of relationship, but that she is the one using it for power and control. And he`s the one who can`t get out because he`s so addicted to it.
Who`s that? Go, Wendy.
WALSH: It`s Wendy. I have to say something. You know --
PINSKY: I don`t want to hear about your personal life necessarily.
PINSKY: Maybe (INAUDIBLE), but go ahead.
WALSH: Let me ask you a question. In a traditional S and M relationship, who has the power, the top or the bottom?
PINSKY: In a traditional relationship?
PAUL: Man, let me just say, I am not on raising America right now, people.
WALSH: The answer is, it`s the bottom, because the bottom is actually being served. The bottom is the one who`s tied up, who`s unable to participate and help, so it`s the bottom who`s being served. And that`s the piece that people don`t get. They think the person in the dominant person is the one in control but they`re not. The bottom is always in control.
PINSKY: OK. So, Wendy, you`re making a very important point that we can extrapolate to Jodi and Travis which is that though she seemed to be the passive participant, she was very -- and this is my point -- she`s very active and using sex for power and control, right?
PINSKY: So --
HUTT: Well, you can hear her. She says that`s debasing, ooh, I like it.
PINSKY: OK. Let`s get a call from one of our viewers.
Pat in Texas. You`ve got a comment all we`ve been discussing here this evening? Go right ahead, please?
PAT, CALLER FROM TEXAS: Hello, Dr. Drew. I`m 60 years old, and I don`t think the sexual conversation or the act between Jodi and Travis were that unusual. The fact that they were in the privacy of their own home, plus I think some of it was just talk.
PINSKY: Well, it was pretty active talk, let`s be fair. But you`re saying as a woman, you know, 60 years of age, we might speculate you would be shocked to hear that kind of conversation -- you`re saying, eh, you know, it`s extreme, no, listen, it`s extreme, but you`re not saying anything, again, same thing we`re saying that it`s consensual, it`s two people pushing the envelope.
Cheryl, you`re sort of smiling. Please? I know you`ve got something up your sleeve.
ARUTT: I was just thinking that this gives a whole new meaning to raising America.
PAUL: I didn`t say it. I didn`t say it.
PINSKY: I think there are important points have been made here. A, this is not pathological behavior. It`s sort of pushing the envelope but nothing wrong or bad happening here. It seemed consensual. They`re both participating. Nobody gets hurt at this stage of the game.
And number two, there is a component to this relationship where Travis gets dragged into it. There`s a part of himself which is walled off, walled off early in childhood where he`s being beaten by his mom and abandoned by his father and that part got sucked into this relationship. That part of himself he perceives as bad is hooked up to a bad person, does bad things with him that he can`t share with anybody else. It`s a secret now. It`s on a compulsion and Jodi use that for power and control.
Show of hands. Everybody agree with me?
ARUTT: I agree with you.
HUTT: I agree. Yes.
PINSKY: All right. There we go. Christi, not so much?
PAUL: No, I believe there were definitely two Travises. There`s no doubt about it.
PINSKY: Same thing I`m saying.
PINSKY: Back with my stalking expert, Michelle Ward. Although we were talking about Michelle, a certain kind of relationship there with where people get too intensely attached with this sex compulsion and whatnot. That`s not necessarily a quality for a stalking relationship.
WARD: No, absolutely not. And, in fact, this is the most common type of relationship. But there are people who stalk people they don`t know. There are people that stalk everybody they date.
So, this particular relationship was explosive. But we don`t have to have that. There are children who stalk other children.
PINSKY: Oh, interesting. Does the intensity of a relation predict stalking?
WARD: It absolutely can. And those are the red flags that we talk about a lot. You know, notice if your partner becomes an a little possessive. Notice if they`re becoming jealous.
And another red flag is, notice if they try to speed up the pace of a relationship. And that`s important. But it`s difficult, because that can be someone just excited about the relationship.
PINSKY: So getting sucked in too fast and sex is a domain where that can really go happen.
PINSKY: All right. Next up, what do stalkers hope to accomplish? And what did Jodi Arias think she was doing by crawling through Travis` doggy door.
And later, we will take your calls about stalking. The threat, the danger, the very real possibility that it could result in a deadly attack.
We`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
ARIAS: There`s just no reason I would ever want to hurt him. And I think of all the things that Travis` family is going to miss out on with Travis. And he had brothers and sisters, and I have brothers and sisters. It`s not fair.
DETECTIVE: It`s not fair, but this is where we are.
ARIAS: I mean, I know that he`s in a good place, and I know that he`s fine. I know that he`s doing great, but what about all of his friends, and all of his family that are here and they`re just going through all of this? And I know it`s temporary, but it`s so very much right now.
I have to maintain my innocence. I can`t admit to doing something that I haven`t done.
Has his family called today?
ARIAS: I`ve been wanting to call every day, too, but I didn`t want it to look obsessive. So, I just tried to limit it to once a week.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
PINSKY: Which is still obsessive, Jodi.
Back with talking expert and psychologist Michelle Ward.
You just Jodi Arias, a stalker, appear to regret that Travis Alexander was killed by somebody -- her. The question is, are stalkers, sorry or gratified in some way with their actions, even if they turn violent, even deadly.
I asked my panel, what Jodi and stalkers, think they are accomplishing by paying so much unwanted attention to another person.
PINSKY: The tears at this time are different, feel different, not, not more authentic, frankly.
ARUTT: Definitely not.
PINSKY: But different than the ones that were on the stand, isn`t that interesting?
ARUTT: That is. Dr. Drew, I was wondering what you thought about how all this kind of watching how she was coming across. She said things about, about I don`t -- I didn`t want to look obsessive. And she seemed to be kind of floating this idea that maybe he`ll have sympathy for me if I act really upset, but I know he`s fine -- like she kept trying these two different gears.
PINSKY: Yes, right. And she was just floating bizarre ideas to the questioner.
And, Emily, I`m going to go to you. I say -- this is going to sound bizarre maybe. But I`m reacting to how I took this in intuitively. On the stand, the tears were about, the gig is up, I`ve been caught, I`m anxious and having a panic attack.
Here I think these were tears of flirtation.
EMILY MORSE, STAR, "MISS ADVISED": Tears of flirtation. They might have been. Her tears have never been representative of anything they seem to be.
So, to me, that looked like a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde emotional basket case, that was like rationalizing before one side saying something, or unconscious mind saying another thing, that it`s all over the place. And probably, we have to remember, she`s a vixen. She probably is flirting in everything she does.
MORSE: There`s a little undertone of I`m a vixen. This is what I`m doing, I`m flirting. She`s probably gotten attention in the past from crying from men.
MORSE: And she -- yes.
PINSKY: Emily, it`s -- you guys missed it. But I have a monitor I get to watch you guys on. Robi, Cheryl and Teresa were all nodding their heads in unison, in the same rhythm, Robi. So I let you comment about that.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I have the same idea, Dr. Drew. It was a lot of distress and she is very seductive, and she knows her beauty. And she`s smart about people, and she understands the power she has on men.
"Travis is in a better place. I know he`s OK." That`s how she felt. She was happier to have him kid, because then she didn`t have to worry about him cheating on her or leaving on her. She could control the situation.
So, she was happy with the arrangement.
PINSKY: Abe, Abe, before you blurt out whatever you were going to blurt, I just want to remind everybody that Abe had his hands -- where were they again, Abe, when you`re dating her?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Careful.
PINSKY: I`m just saying.
ABE ABDELHADI, DATED JODI: You know what, this ain`t HBO, but thank you for playing.
All I wanted to say was she had the temerity to try to work this officer when he knows that she did it. And he has the evidence. He`s got the photos.
I don`t know how she is that disconnected that she thinks she can actually work a guy when the punch line is you die. That`s not sexy, 29 stab wounds, almost your head cut off, shot in the head, that`s not sexy.
I don`t understand this supposed allure that she still thinks she has and she`s still working --
PINSKY: But, Abe, I think that`s what makes you so angry. That`s what makes you get angry every time, right?
PINSKY: You almost got sucked into the rabbit hole, and you know what`s down there. And that makes you angry.
ABDELHADI: Well, I think it makes any guy angry. It blows my mind. It wasn`t so much that I almost got sucked into the rabbit hole or what- have-you, although I probably have, who knows? But what really drives me crazy with all of this is that she still thinks she can actually work it. And I don`t get it.
ARUTT: That`s the shameless psychopath.
PINSKY: And Cheryl and I have maintained this all along that there`s borderline features which now, Cheryl, come up on the stand with psychopathic tendencies that make her the cold -- give her that cold- blooded quality, right?
PINSKY: Yes. Teresa, you have questions for the panel? I see you shaking your head vigorously. Go.
TERESA STRASSER, TV PERSONALITY: Yes. Something that stood out for me in the testimony is that she supposedly has a genius IQ, in particular, in the area of verbal comprehension. She scored 138, close to genius, but the one verbal communication she could not understand that she needed to was, I don`t want to be your boyfriend.
I`m not going to be your husband. I`m not going to have kids with you. Maybe I`ll have sex with you, but I don`t want you. She couldn`t hear that.
ABDELHADI: She was articulate, but she wasn`t intelligent. I think that`s a mistake we make in the society. If you`re good-looking and you can put a sentence together, people think you`re bright. She`s anything, but --
PINSKY: And Robi, no emotional intelligence. That`s the main thing - - go ahead.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSY.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: No. I think that`s where her disorder comes in. She could be very bright. Clearly, she was troubled, because here`s a bright woman who didn`t graduate high school. That doesn`t make any sense. And when someone has a borderline personality disorder, what happens is they distort lots of things.
LUDWIG: They distort their emotions.
LUDWIG: And they distort the relationships they have with other people.
LUDWIG: So, I think in her mind, Travis was hers.
LUDWIG: So, it didn`t matter what he was saying. And then, when he finally made, himself clear, her ego fell apart. She couldn`t handle it, became enraged.
LUDWIG: And the only way to dismiss that rage or reduce the rage was to kill him.
PINSKY: And it`s hard for people to understand that these people, these borderlines, literally perceive reality in a distorted way. It goes into memory in a distorted fashion so they can report with abject honestly about something -- you ever find yourself shaking your head go yagidi- yagada, it`s somebody says, you know, experience something completely different than what you remember. It`s this kind of things, sometimes. And sometimes, it`s flat out lying, too.
PINSKY: Back with my stalking expert and psychologist, Michelle Ward. Michelle, a lot about borderline stuff there in that conversation, but borderline`s not the only -- anybody can be a stalker, right? You don`t have to be a borderline.
MICHELLE WARD, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely.
PINSKY: OK. So -- certain personalities that maybe certain personalities are more at risk for stalking but you don`t have to have that. Why does a stalker go to killing their object of affection?
WARD: Their target.
WARD: Homicide in a stalking situation is actually not that common. Only two percent -- around two percent actually become violent, but this is what happens. It`s a hell in their head. They get up in the morning, they`re brushing their teeth, they`re thinking of their target. They`re thinking of they can`t escape it. And it`s like a horrible addiction.
The only way they can imagine ending it, well, there are three ways. They kill themselves, they kill the target, or they kill them both. And usually, that`s what we see. We see this really messy dramatic murder and usually taking the one`s own life or turning oneself in.
PINSKY: But she didn`t turn herself --
PINSKY: -- her psychopathic piece.
WARD: That`s right.
All right. Next, what does the childhood, how you`re raised, who your parents are, what kind of things you experienced have to do with being a stalker or a stalking victim. We`ll look at Travis Alexander`s upbringing.
And later, Michelle and I we`ll answer your questions about stalking.
PINSKY: Welcome back. My co-host tonight, psychologist, Michelle Ward. She is an expert in stalking. And we`re using the Jodi Arias case as an opportunity to talk about this rather common problem. And as we`ve talked about tonight already, many of you during adolescence or maybe during your adulthood have done a bit of this.
And Michelle and I spoke to our panel about Travis Alexander`s youth and how that may have, in some way, contributed to his vulnerability to be a victim of somebody like Jodi.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I first started training and things like that, you can imagine the first thing I would hear a lot of is by the way, he`s single. And I`d be like, that`s right, I am. Ladies, come get me. That`s been going on for six years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Jacob, what was going through your mind as you watched and listened to Travis that day?
VOICE OF JACOB MEFFORD, ATTENDED TRAVIS` MAY 2008 SPEECH: Well, watching Travis, you know, get started from nothing, literally having, you know, two or three minimum wage jobs and coming from, you know, the pit of hell that he had come from in the past and watching him develop, I remember sitting there thinking, wow, you know, he`s really become something great.
And I just remember how polished he was and just his depth of his character and the substance of who he was as a person and just his talent to be able to deliver a message that can inspire a lot. I just remember thinking, you know, man, well done.
PINSKY: And Jacob, you know, Michelle was asking me before we watched this about trauma survivors. You say the pit of hell. I`ve heard a lot of vague notions about where Travis came from. What do you mean when you say the pit of hell?
MEFFORD: You know, it`s interesting. Jodi`s up there talking about her background, but Travis isn`t here to talk about his. And his was ten times worse than anything she could ever try to make up. You know, he was really the victim of being born into a broken family. His mom was a drug user, aggressively. He was homeless with her at times.
I remember he was telling me one of his memories was living underneath a -- you know, an actual cover on a truck port in the backyard somewhere and actually having visions of his mom literally going to the bathroom in a five gallon bucket. And so, this is where he came from. To go through all of that, deal with those struggles, deal with that baggage, and to decide to make something of himself rather than use it as an excuse.
So, what I love is when he`s speaking from that stage, he`s not talking in theory like maybe a lot of politicians. He`s speaking from somebody who has actually come from hell, dealt with it, said, you know what, that`s my story, who cares, and then turned around and done something positive with it.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host tonight, psychologist, Michelle Ward. So, Michelle, is someone like Travis who`s a trauma survivor, a prime candidate for a victim of stalking or is it people pleasers or is there any sort of profile to the victim?
WARD: There actually isn`t. I mean, not that I`ve seen. The fact that he has had a traumatic child, there might be some susceptibility. But if you look at Travis` specific case, he`s also a person who believes in redemption and he believes that anybody can live a better life and that people -- he believes in recovery and all sorts of -- he`s really an optimistic person. So, he might not back away from red flags like other people do, because he`s a believer.
PINSKY: So, he would take a Jodi and go ooh, this is a little creepy, but there`s redeeming some qualities in her. We`re having good sex, maybe that`s OK.
PINSKY: And he has seemed to have not -- caught off guard by how intense and crazy it got.
WARD: Well, and it gives him an opportunity to be a little bit bad. And a lot of men want an opportunity to be a little bit bad. So, I think that it was just a bad combination of bad set-up.
PINSKY: Out of curiosity, do victims ever become stalkers or vice versa? Were they ever stalkers and then become a subject of victimization?
WARD: I have seen that, especially people who`ve been victimized in childhood. Sometimes, they end up --
PINSKY: They go either way.
PINSKY: Which is often the way they say people victimized as childhood can become a perpetrator of violence or become a victim of violence.
WARD: You get a lot of PTSD, posttraumatic stress disorder, symptoms in people who have been victimized, and it`s worse the younger they are.
OK. Next, we will look at Jodi Arias` youth and what went wrong with her, if we can figure that out.
And later, are you being stalked or are you a stalker? Michelle and I will take your calls after this.
PINSKY: Thank you for joining myself and my co-host, Michelle Ward. We are talking about stalking. We`ve learned a lot about confessed killer Jodi Arias` childhood and what happened that may have left scars that may have led her to murder that may have led her to stalk. Here`s her mother talking to police.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You need some help, Jodi. I said, you got this fantasy in your head that you had a rotten childhood and that we searched your room all the time and we did all this stuff, and we didn`t. And you need some help. The only time we ever searched her room was when she was in eighth grade.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell us about what happened. You said you went in your room, you relaxed. What did you do next?
JODI ARIAS, CONVICTED MURDERER: We just wandered around a little. We went out to the swimming pool. There are a lot of people there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were in Santa Maria, and she was growing pod.
ARIAS: I didn`t bring a bathing suit. I was thinking business. So - -
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were getting ready to move and couldn`t find my Tupperware container, she had them on the roof.
ARIAS: I felt, I don`t know, it was 100 degrees and everyone was out in bikinis hanging out, splashing around.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m growing pod (ph) on the roof.
ARIAS: I felt awkward standing in my business clothes, you know?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, we called the police and turned her in and wanted something done, you know, to scare her and whatever.
ARIAS: I was getting introduced to a lot of people. I couldn`t really keep track of everyone. There were a lot of names.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s the only time I have ever, in my whole life search room.
PINSKY: My panel had a discussion about Jodi`s youth and how it may have impacted on or resulted in her stalking behaviors. Take a look.
PINSKY: I`m still struck by this notion of how different the perception the two of these women have of Jodi`s childhood. Patti, start with you. Whom do you believe and why the big distortion on Jodi part?
PATTI WOOD, BEHAVIOR EXPERT: During the testimony when Jodi was actually talking about her mother, there was a lot of what it`s called a tongue cleanse and lots of clicking that indicate her mother is distasteful to her. And she said this when she was on the stand.
PINSKY: Interesting. And Cheryl, distortion --
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: There are cognitive distortions. There are thinking distortions that people who are borderline like Jodi make. And when you`re the mom of somebody who can turn on a dime from love to hate and back again, there`s going to be a very stormy kind of relationship there, and I think these two have demonstrated that.
PINSKY: Christi, you have a question?
CHRISTI PAUL, AUTHOR, "LOVE ISN`T SUPPOSED TO HURT": Well, you know, what struck me about her mom is that she offered up so easily in that police interrogation that Jodi had mental issues. And I`m wondering if you picked up, Dr. Drew, at all, if there was almost a relief on this mom`s part that finally somebody else was going to have to deal with her daughter other than herself?
PINSKY: No. I actually got desperation that she had been really wanting to get something for this girl, and now, oh, my God, this. But, at least, we`re going to find out what`s really going on here. Jenny, have you ever had anyone in your life that lie, distorted, and made you feel like, you know, I`m desperate to try to understand what`s going on here, but I can`t figure it out?
JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: Well, that`s what I think the thing is -- that that`s what I think the thing is here. This has gone from being a regular kid who might lie to get out of trouble or a naughty teenager to psychotic and really screwed up and crazy and naughty, although, not crazy at the time of the crime. So, I feel sad for this mother that she`s had this tumultuous time with her daughter.
PINSKY: Yes. And we don`t want another victim here. That`s right. We don`t want to make the mom another victim here. They`ve had to deal with this girl, but I say a little crazy at the time of the murder. I`m going to just bring -- maybe not crazy enough to be insane and not know what she`s doing was right and wrong.
PINSKY: Yes, but crazy enough to done something like this.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, stalking expert, Michelle Ward. So, let`s -- there`s no specific pattern to who becomes a stalker, right?
PINSKY: There are certain liabilities and Jodi has a very weird sort of -- I don`t brief any of the stuff that Jodi has said about her childhood by the way.
PINSKY: Right. So, we don`t really know what went on with Jodi, although, we know she has a borderline personality disorder, which is a liability for becoming a stalker.
WARD: Absolutely. That is most like -- that is the one personality disorder that is most likely to stalk.
PINSKY: OK. So, people that have a lot of internal turmoil and don`t have good boundaries and can`t regulate their emotions might not be able to regulate their feelings when they leave someone or tolerate someone leaving, which is the big issue in the borderline, right? They can`t tolerate the leaving.
WARD: The fear of abandonment. They`re so scared they`re going to be left is how it goes. And they`re really not sure of who they are. You know that identity we go through when crisis when we`re younger, who am I going to be, what am I going to be?
PINSKY: As an adolescent.
WARD: As an adolescent.
PINSKY: Maybe why adolescents have such difficulty leaving this very intense, puppy love relationships they have.
PINSKY: They feel like they`re sort of shattered when they try to leave.
WARD: Right. And a lot of times, people like Jodi do have really traumatic backgrounds, but I don`t think it`s the case here. I think that she was a bad seed. And what I picked up from that video was, her mom knows she`s a bad seed and was looking for help.
PINSKY: I completely agree. Very interesting.
Next up, do you think you are a stalker or are you a victim of stalker or you wonder where the line should be drawn? We are answering your questions after the break.
PINSKY: We are back with psychologist and stalking expert, Michelle Ward, and we want to go right out to the phones now. Let`s go to Chrissy in Texas -- Chrissy.
CHRISSY, TEXAS: Hey, Dr. Drew.
CHRISSY: I was married for 42 years. And even though I`m the one that obtained the divorce, I found myself driving by his new apartment to see if his truck was there.
CHRISSY: Now, there`s got to be a line between curiosity and stalking. I mean, I often thought about putting a dozen rotten eggs inside his truck. I know that would be stalking. But what kind of line is there between curiosity and stalking?
PINSKY: That`s a great question. How long did those sorts of thoughts and behaviors go on after the divorce?
CHRISSY: It`s been a year, and I still, if I drive past -- I don`t purposely drive past the complex now, but if I do, I still look to see if the truck is there.
PINSKY: Got it. So, to me, Michelle, correct me if I`m wrong, but that to me seems -- after a 43-year marriage, that seems completely normal.
WARD: Totally normal.
PINSKY: But it`s interesting that in that behavior is sort of the beginning of what becomes stalking, isn`t it?
WARD: Well, and I think the fact that Chrissy`s actually wondering if it`s OK means that she`s OK. You know, the fact that she`s actually like, oh, how far does this go. But that`s just the end of a relationship. If somebody`s been part of your life, I think that`s completely normal here.
PINSKY: I think that`s sort of grieving. Partly anger, because you want to go, leave the rotten eggs --
PINSKY: I understand that. And part of the grieving, too, is she`s trying to go back to that -- it`s almost like visiting a grave site or something and people do that sort of naturally.
WARD: It`s mourning.
PINSKY: Mourning, that`s right. Let`s go to Susan in Idaho. Susan, what do you got?
SUSAN, IDAHO: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Susan.
SUSAN: I have a comment to make and a question to ask. If you could tell me if you think that Jodi could have begun stalking Travis prior to ever meeting him via the internet, somebody advising her to connect up with PPL, and having researched it possibly on the internet?
PINSKY: Why do you ask that? Why do you ask that question? It`s interesting.
SUSAN: I ask it because I think that she doesn`t do anything by accident.
PINSKY: OK. So, is it --
SUSAN: I think she preplans and premeditates.
PINSKY: We`ll talk about that, Michelle. So, what do you think? I mean, is she that diabolical that this is something that started before? It feels -- you know, it`s funny, somebody like Jodi evokes those sort of fantasies, doesn`t she? That she`s capable of anything.
WARD: And you know I always go there.
WARD: I`m listening to this, I`m thinking oh, my gosh, there might be something we`ve absolutely missed, because if you think about the way they connected up that convention and he`s well-known and well-liked, I mean, it`s completely possible.
PINSKY: It`s consistent with the stalking that she eventually did do and it is consistent with the border line -- not borderline, the psychopathy that you keep saying is there. So, if she is a psychopath, wow, my dear. You really brought up something interesting. We will give the detective something to chew on at some point.
All right. Next up, we`re going to take the last call on stalking.
PINSKY: It`s time now for the last call on stalking. Julie in Louisiana. Julie, what do you got?
JULIE, LOUISIANA: Hey, Dr. Drew.
JULIE: On the last call, she mentioned about Jodi`s premeditation. My sister brought it up about Jodi wrote in her journal in February that Travis put a gun to his -- he wanted to put a gun to his head and shoot his self in the head. I think that was premeditating her shooting him in the head in June.
And the other thing I wanted to find out is, how did he find out about her crawling through the dog door? Did he catch her or --
PINSKY: I think she ended up sleeping on the couch. And there was no sign of anything else having been disturbed other than the dog door. She probably told him. And she`s also hidden behind the Christmas tree and slept -- she is quite capable of bizarre stalking, slashing tires, the whole thing.
WARD: And she doesn`t feel ashamed. So, why not?
PINSKY: Do stalkers not feel shame?
WARD: No, no. Stalkers can`t feel shame. Psychopaths don`t.
PINSKY: I see. And normally, a stalker, if they start doing these behaviors, do they feel bad? Do they feel out of control?
WARD: Absolutely. That`s the thing about a stalker. We talk about how bad it is to be a victim, and I don`t mean to give too much credit to the stalker, but it is hell (ph) to be the stalker.
PINSKY: There you go. All right. In this case, we`re not giving excuses to old Jodi.
WARD: No, because she`s worse than a stalker.
PINSKY: That`s right. The stats I`ve cited tonight are from the U.S. bureau of justice website, go to BJS.com for more information about stalking. Stalking is a crime. If you are a victim, tell some about it and call authorities. If you are suffering with this, get help before you hurt yourself or somebody else.
Thank you, Michelle Ward. Thank you for watching. I`ll see you next time.