|Jodi Arias and Kirk Nurmi look on as defense attorney Jennifer Willmott questions Alyce LaViolette on April 4, 2013, in the Jodi Arias, first-degree murder trial.|
After discussing prosecutor's theme for the day: "Snow White", the panel discussed Jodi Arias' hair style which consisted of a half-ponytail with bangs.
You may watch the full day's events from April 4, 2013, below as well as read the full transcript.
Jodi`s Trial Live
Aired April 4, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JIM MORET, GUEST HOST: Yes, you are watching DR. DREW ON CALL. I`m Jim Moret from "Inside Edition", sitting in tonight for Drew.
With me, co-host for the week, attorney Mark Eiglarsh from speaktomark.com.
We`ll go back to live coverage of the Jodi Arias trial in just a second. Before we go back, stay tuned for the return of juror number five, because she is back. We`ll get into Jodi`s new hairdo. What else is there to talk about today?
Right now, press the play button. The trial continues.
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: From your reading of the journals, as you sit here today with the memory that you have intact, what can you tell us that she wrote that was negative? You did say that you read the journals, right?
WITNESS: I did read the --
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Objection, argumentative, date and time that he`s referring to.
MARTINEZ: Right? You did say you read the journals, right?
WITNESS: Yes, I did.
MARTINEZ: What can you tell us that is negative that she wrote in any of those journals?
WITNESS: You`re asking me specific comments she made. And I can`t tell you specifically what she said, because I don`t have the journal with me.
MARTINEZ: Oh, so in order for you to tell us what she wrote in the journal, you have to have it in front of your face so that you can read it, right?
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Objection. Argumentative.
JUDGE: Sustained. Rephrase.
MARTINEZ: Well, it seems to, what you`re telling me is that your memory is lacking as to what was in those journal, yes or no?
MARTINEZ: All right. Then, give me an example of what you read in those journals that is negative that the defendant said?
WITNESS: She says -- she talks about not being productive.
MARTINEZ: OK. What else?
WITNESS: She talks about -- she talks about feeling lousy about herself.
WITNESS: She talks about not being, not being advanced in PPL the way she`d like to be advanced in PPL.
She talks about not having her, her goals, not, not forwarding her goals in the way she wants to.
MARTINEZ: Anything else?
WITNESS: I`m sure there are other things.
MARTINEZ: But you just can`t remember right now, right?
WITNESS: I can`t.
MARTINEZ: And all in all what you`ve given us is a pretty positive picture of the defendant, because those kinds of things that you`re talking about are really not that major, in the grand scheme of things, are they?
WITNESS: They`re not that major.
MARTINEZ: And, ma`am, with regard to this issue of how you conduct your work, the way it really works is that you conduct the interviews and then you look at other sources, right?
WITNESS: I do.
MARTINEZ: And that`s what you did in this case, with the exception that you only conducted one interview, right? The defendant`s interview, right?
MARTINEZ: And in this case, we are left, if you will, to follow this road map that you gave us, which is exhibit 558 that is in a sense a road map, right?
WITNESS: It`s a guideline.
MARTINEZ: It`s a guideline, which means we can look at it to guide us to a goal, right?
WITNESS: It is a guideline, it is not a specific road map that will take you from here to here.
MARTINEZ: I`m not asking -- I left the roadmap behind. I actually used the word guideline. Isn`t this a guideline that will take us to a certain decision or opinion by you? Isn`t this, in part, isn`t this a guideline that you use?
WITNESS: It is a guideline.
MARTINEZ: And this is a guideline that you created, right?
WITNESS: Yes, it is.
MARTINEZ: So that you can change it whenever you want, right?
WITNESS: I have changed it.
MARTINEZ: Right. So the answer is this is your guideline, and you can change it whenever you want, right?
MARTINEZ: And, in fact, with regard to using this guideline, isn`t it true that you really don`t even have to talk to any of the parties that are involved in order for you to reach your opinion?
WITNESS: I don`t use a guideline that way, Mr. Martinez.
MARTINEZ: Well, are you familiar, back in 2010, are you familiar putting on a seminar and indicating that Snow White was a battered woman. Do you remember talking about that?
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Objection, irrelevant.
MARTINEZ: Do you remember that? Yes or no?
WITNESS: No, that`s, if you would like to show the entire YouTube video, I would be happy for the, anybody to see that, because I`m not talking -- the title was, "Is Snow White a battered woman?", because it was catchy.
MARTINEZ: Right. So it does say is Snow White a battered woman, right? That is the title of it, correct?
WITNESS: It is.
MARTINEZ: And in fact, you gave this presentation, if you will, in Las Vegas, in 2010, right?
WITNESS: I`ve given it more than once.
MARTINEZ: In 2010, isn`t it true that you gave this presentation in Las Vegas?
WITNESS: I gave a short form of it.
MARTINEZ: Yes or no?
WITNESS: I gave a short form of it, yes, I did.
MARTINEZ: Did I ask you whether it was a lock, medium or short form?
WITNESS: Well, there are different versions of it.
MARTINEZ: I`m asking you whether or not you gave this presentation, yes or no? I`m not asking about the length.
WITNESS: I gave -- I gave a presentation in Las Vegas, yes.
MARTINEZ: Isn`t it true you also gave that again in Los Angeles in 2010.
WITNESS: An altered version.
MARTINEZ: But you did give this presentation involving Snow White and whether or not she was a battered woman in Los Angeles, right?
MARTINEZ: And one of the items that you used in regard to that in trying to determine whether or not an individual is a battered person, you look at 558. That`s a guideline that you use, right?
WITNESS: I did not use that at all in any of the speaking engagements, Mr. Martinez.
MARTINEZ: Well, I`m not asking if you used it in the speaking engagements. In this case, for example, you talked about family of origin issues. Do you see that up there?
MARTINEZ: And one of the things you told us, you looked at the family origin of Mr. Alexander. Didn`t you tell us that?
MARTINEZ: Well, if we take a look to follow up on your Snow White issue that you presented, she had family of origin issues, didn`t she?
WITNESS: The family of origin issues we are talking about here, Mr. Martinez, are the family of origin issues for the perpetrator.
MARTINEZ: OK. So in other words, you see Mr. Alexander as the perpetrator. You don`t see him as the victim.
MARTINEZ: And so it`s --
WITNESS: Well, I see -- in, I am looking at domestic violence. And in regard to domestic violence, I am seeing Mr. Alexander as the perpetrator. Yes.
MARTINEZ: And one of the things that we know about your presentation, also, is that -- and Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs is a fairy tale by Brothers Grimm, right?
MARTINEZ: And in it, we have the individual who is a king, that`s the king, right, who is married and has a kid by -- and they name her Snow White, right?
Yes or no?
WITNESS: I`m not using the Brothers Grimm version. I`m using the Walt Disney cartoon. I just want to make that clear.
MARTINEZ: So, there`s a different -- all right. But is it true, though, that Snow White had a father, right?
WITNESS: Yes, she did.
MARTINEZ: And the father was the king, right?
MARTINEZ: And it ends up that snow white`s mother ends up dying, right?
MARTINEZ: And what ends up happening is that she remarries, right?
MARTINEZ: And what ends up happening is that he remarries, is that he has somebody who is less than honorable, if you will or savory with regard to her view of Snow White, correct?
MARTINEZ: And so, what happens during that situation is that there is a problem, because this woman, the queen, begins to, if you will, abuse or be less than nice to Snow White, right?
MARTINEZ: So what we have, then, is a situation where we have a father who has failed to protect, right? If we`re looking at it from this global perspective, right?
MARTINEZ: And so then, if we look at it that way, Snow White is sort of being -- and I use the term loosely -- abused. Not in the technical sense, but she`s not being treated correctly, right?
WITNESS: She`s -- she`s being abused as a child, right.
MARTINEZ: That`s correct. And one of the things that happens after that is that the father sends her away, correct? She goes into the forest, right?
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Objection, irrelevant, going this far into the Snow White story?
WITNESS: She goes into the woods, correct.
MARTINEZ: And, in fact, when she`s out in the woods, there`s neglect by the father, right?
MARTINEZ: So, for example, in this particular case, one of the things that you used in your evaluation was that the defendant, according to you, suffered some abuse as a kid, right?
MARTINEZ: According to you, the wicked stepmother in her circumstance is her mother, right?
WITNESS: I didn`t say that.
MARTINEZ: No, I`m the one that`s asking the question. Isn`t that true?
WITNESS: I don`t equate her mother with a wicked stepmother.
MARTINEZ: Well, according to her mother according to what you found out, hit her with a spoon, right?
MARTINEZ: And according to what we know is she allowed her father to hit her also, right?
WITNESS: Yes, she it.
MARTINEZ: And her father hit her and at one point you know some of the -- what do you know about what her father did to her in terms of any abuse that there may be here?
WITNESS: There was one incident where he pushed her, and she hit a piece of furniture and lost consciousness.
MARTINEZ: And the mother was present, right?
WITNESS: The mother -- I`m not certain if the mother was present, Mr. Martinez.
MARTINEZ: Would that be important to know?
WITNESS: Not necessarily. Because there were other incidents.
WITNESS: There were other -- I`m not, I`m not evaluating whether or not Ms. Arias is a battered child, Mr. Martinez. I was looking at the issues of domestic violence.
MARTINEZ: Well, ma`am, you`re talking about abuse, aren`t you? Right?
WITNESS: I`m talking about domestic violence between two adult intimates.
MARTINEZ: And one of the things that you just told me that you did was that you looked at the background of the defendant, didn`t you just tell me that?
WITNESS: I did.
MARTINEZ: And you know about this abuse at the hands of her mother, right?
MARTINEZ: And one of the things that happens, and we talked about Snow White being sent out to the forest. One of the things that happens to the defendant you`re aware of is that isn`t it true that before she was the age of maturity, she was also sent out into the woods to go live with somebody else, right?
WITNESS: She was not sent out. She chose to leave.
MARTINEZ: So she left. In other words, she chose to leave, why? Why do you believe that she chose to leave?
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Objection. Irrelevant speculation (INAUDIBLE).
MARTINEZ: Go ahead. Why did she choose to leave?
WITNESS: She chose to leave, because she felt abused and because she felt controlled.
MARTINEZ: By her parents, right?
MARTINEZ: And she moved in with somebody by the name of, what? What was his name?
WITNESS: Bobby Juarez.
MARTINEZ: And she lived in what is -- can be best described as less than ideal circumstances, right?
MARTINEZ: And the same thing with snow white, right? She lived in a situation that was less than ideal circumstances, right?
WITNESS: She lived with the seven dwarfs and according to the Disney version, she was pretty happy.
MARTINEZ: Well, she lived in a shack, right?
WITNESS: I thought it was a cute little cottage, Mr. Martinez.
MARTINEZ: All right. But there are seven dwarfs that she`s living with, right? No one of her own age is there, right?
WITNESS: I don`t know the age of the dwarfs. I don`t. I`m sorry, but I don`t.
MARTINEZ: Well -- what I`m saying to you is, is it your opinion that there were other little kids that would play on the playground with her when she was living with the seven dwarfs?
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Objection. Irrelevant. Argumentative.
JUDGE: Overruled. You may continue.
WITNESS: Would you repeat the question please?
MARTINEZ: Is it your understanding that there were other little kids to play with snow white out near the shack?
WITNESS: Near the cottage, no.
MARTINEZ: In fact, she was just there cooking and cleaning, right?
WITNESS: Well, she was talking to the birds and singing with the animals.
MARTINEZ: And cooking and cleaning for the dwarfs, right?
MARTINEZ: Isn`t that what you know about the defendant and Bobby Juarez, right?
WITNESS: I don`t know if Jodi was cooking and cleaning for Bobby Juarez?
MARTINEZ: Do you know if he was working?
WITNESS: He was not working.
MARTINEZ: Do you know who was providing the money to buy the food.
WITNESS: They were living with his family.
MARTINEZ: Right. But do you know whether or not the defendant was working?
WITNESS: She was working.
MARTINEZ: Do you know whether or not she indicated on the stand that she was the one that bought all the food?
WITNESS: I`ve not been privy to what she said on the stand, Mr. Martinez.
MARTINEZ: Did you discuss it with her?
WITNESS: That she brought food into the house?
WITNESS: Yes, she did.
MARTINEZ: And then with regard to Snow White, one of the things that we know is that something bad happens to her, right? The incident with the apple, right?
MARTINEZ: Somebody comes and harms her, right?
MARTINEZ: And we can take it different ways, but you know, do you know any incident involving her and Bob Juarez?
MARTINEZ: What is the incident that you flow about?
WITNESS: I know about a time that he choked her. I know that he, according to Mr. McCartney (ph), verbally abused her.
MARTINEZ: So with regard to the choking, that`s a violent act, correct?
MARTINEZ: Just like this issue involving the apple is a violent act, right?
MARTINEZ: And with regard to Snow White, we know that she ends up going unconscious as we would talk about it in this day and age, right?
MARTINEZ: And basically, what`s going on with her is that she`s waiting around, right? For Prince Charming, right? Or somebody? Right?
WITNESS: She`s waiting around?
MARTINEZ: Well, she`s not going anywhere, right?
WITNESS: When she`s unconscious?
WITNESS: Well, when she`s unconscious she`s lying around unconscious.
MARTINEZ: And then we have the kiss or whatever happens. And Snow White awakens, right?
MARTINEZ: And she starts to live with Prince Charming, right?
MARTINEZ: And if we start talking about this issue involving the balance of power. In that particular situation, Snow White has no power, right?
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Objection. Irrelevant.
WITNESS: Well, she`s a queen. I`m not sure what kind of power she has.
MARTINEZ: The king has the power, doesn`t he?
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Objection. Foundation. Relevance, foundation, speculation.
WITNESS: Well, the king -- yes, has more power.
MARTINEZ: And so, if for example, snow white in this relationship, if we`re talking about the balance of power, in that case, she doesn`t have much power, right?
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Objection. Speculation. Judge, may we approach?
JUDGE: You may approach.
MORET: Wow. You are in fact listening to legal testimony about Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. I do not know what`s coming up next. We will not miss it.
We`re hitting the pause button right now.
Coming up. Jodi`s new hairdo. A lot of you have given it an F. Will we our grader center back to beauty school?
Back with more right after this. You`re watching DR. DREW ON CALL on HLN.
MORET: Welcome back to DR. DREW ON CALL. I`m Jim Moret from "Inside Edition", sitting in for Dr. Drew.
Tonight, joining me, my co-host, attorney Mark Eiglarsh from speaktomark.com.
You know, I love this, Mark. I don`t know. I`ve never heard testimony about the seven dwarfs. My favorite question: how old are the dwarfs? I`m guessing duh (ph). That`s just me.
Mark, you have been screaming. I`m hearing from the producers. You`re going crazy --
MARK EIGLARSH, CO-HOST: Really, you heard me? You heard me?
MORET: Yes. I heard you.
EIGLARSH: I`m trying to get it out so I can show love and compassion on the air.
This is the most positive way I can say it: I love Juan Martinez as a person. I love his passion. I love that he`s doing everything he can to win this case.
OK, now, here`s the but, getting lost in the weeds, not varying the pitch. Not carefully crafting the question. This is the result.
I`m pro-prosecution here. She killed someone and deserves to pay, but to be most effective, take the time to carefully craft the questions and be careful with what you ask.
MORET: But, mark, we have to listen more. We have to push play and get back to more of the seven dwarfs in the Jodi Arias trial.
JUDGE: You may continue.
MARTINEZ: Based on your understanding, ma`am, who had the power in that relationship? The king or the queen?
WITNESS: In the specific cartoon of Snow White?
MARTINEZ: I`m talking about Snow White and the seven dwarfs presentation which you have used on two separate occasions.
WITNESS: Mr. Martinez, you`re mischaracterizing my presentation. I don`t do my presentation the way that you`re characterizing it.
MARTINEZ: Isn`t there a syllabus that indicates for example that from 11:10 to 12:10 in studio 3, Alyce LaViolette presented any presentation titled, "Snow White, a Battered Woman." Would that be true.
WITNESS: That`s a title, it was a catchy title.
MARTINEZ: Is that yes? That would be true then, right?
WITNESS: It was a catchy title, yes.
MARTINEZ: So, yes, I am reading it reading correctly, right?
WITNESS: You`re reading the title correctly. You`re not reading the content correctly.
MARTINEZ: Ma`am, what this shows us is that with your approach and with exhibit 558, even if no one`s alive ,even if it`s a myth, even if it`s all made up, you can still come to the opinion --
JUDGE: Wait until he finishes the question. Finish your question.
MARTINEZ: Isn`t it true that you can still come to the opinion that the person in this fantastical world is a victim of domestic violence?
WITNESS: That is incorrect. That was not what I said in my speech.
MARTINEZ: And --
WITNESS: My -- I have said repeatedly that it is a catchy title. And I used it. But what I do in the speech is to talk about gender and power. And I talk about gender.
Mr. Martinez, I`m not talking about Snow White actually being a battered woman. I used -- well, you`d have to see the speech. And you`d have to see the content, Mr. Martinez.
MARTINEZ: Ma`am, putting aside your presentation. Now, let`s put aside your presentation. Isn`t it true that using your continuum of aggression and abuse and by reading this myth, we can plug in and go through this and make an assessment that Snow White was a victim or was a battered woman. We can do that, can`t we?
WITNESS: No, we cannot.
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Objection (INAUDIBLE).
WITNESS: We absolutely cannot.
JUDGE: Hold on. There`s an objection. Ms. Willmott?
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: (INAUDIBLE) mischaracterization and called it a myth.
JUDGE: I think you misinterpreted the question. Restate your question.
MARTINEZ: Isn`t it true, ma`am, that if we take a look at this continuum of aggression and abuse, which is exhibit 558, if we use that and we refer to something that`s wholly a myth, using your expertise, we can make a determination for example that Snow White was a battered woman, can`t we?
WITNESS: No, we cannot.
MARTINEZ: Well, then let`s talk a little bit about Snow White and whether or not we have some of these issues that are presented here. Can we do that? Could you do that with me?
WITNESS: You`re mischaracterizing it, Mr. Martinez.
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Objection. Irrelevant.
MARTINEZ: I would like to go through it with you. And what you`ve told us is that these columns are not necessarily exclusive, right?
WITNESS: That is specific to adult relationship -- adult intimate partner relationship, Mr. Martinez. And I have no information about the relationship between Prince Charming and Snow White. I don`t know what their relationship was.
So you`re mischaracterizing that by saying that that can be applied to Snow White as a child. This is not about child abuse.
MARTINEZ: Well, let`s talk about for example whether or not we can find some of the items that were present in the Snow White and the seven dwarfs and whether or not Snow White was a battered woman, OK?
With regard to your -- the conference agenda, that conference agenda that we`re talking about, it dealt with adults, didn`t it?
WITNESS: It dealt with adults.
MARTINEZ: Yes, it did. And in it you said is Snow White a battered woman. That was the title, right?
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Objection. Asked and answered.
MARTINEZ: And that being the case, ma`am, now you`re trying to tell he that well, no. No, no. No. I don`t want to talk about Snow White now, because it involved a child, right?
WITNESS: No. That`s not what I said, Mr. Martinez.
MARTINEZ: Well, then --
WITNESS: Do you want me to answer that Mr. Martinez? I can.
MARTINEZ: I want you to answer me, why is it now that you don`t want to talk about Snow White as an adult, when you did talk about Snow White as an adult when you made the presentation back in 2010?
WITNESS: I talked about Snow White in regard to growing up and what we believe about ourselves as men and women growing up. I did not talk about Snow White in an intimate relationship with the prince.
MARTINEZ: What did you say at the end there? In an intimate relationship where?
WITNESS: With the prince or the king or whoever.
MARTINEZ: My question was a little bit more narrow than that. And my question was that in this presentation, this involved adults that were you talking about, right?
WITNESS: I spoke to adults.
MARTINEZ: And it involved adult abuse, didn`t it.
WITNESS: It involved gender. We were talking about gender and expectation about gender. And it was at a domestic violence conference. So I spoke about it in a domestic violence conference.
MARTINEZ: Right. And it involved adults, right?
WITNESS: It involved what we learn as children and bring into adulthood.
MARTINEZ: So it involved what you learn has children and what now?
WITNESS: And what we can bring into adulthood about what we learn -- what we learn as children.
MARTINEZ: Right. And so, for example, if we have anger as an issue in the family, that`s something we can learn as a child and take into adulthood, which is what you told us about Mr. Alexander, right?
MARTINEZ: And so we can talk about a number of things that are here and use this as a guide, can`t we, to determine whether or not an individual is a victim of abuse, right?
WITNESS: I`m confused. Are you talking about Snow White again? Because I`m not sure where you`re going here.
MARTINEZ: I`m talking still about --
WITNESS: I`m not understanding this.
MARTINEZ: I`m talking about Snow White, exhibit 558.
WITNESS: That is not applicable to Snow White and the prince`s relationship, which is the relationship that this is about adult intimate partner violence. And you keep referring to Snow White as a child. And what I`m saying to you is that that`s about adult intimate partner violence, and not about her relationship with the prince, which I know nothing about after they get married.
MARTINEZ: So what you`re saying is, even though this involved adults, and you did say is Snow White a battered woman, which would imply that she`s involved with a man as an adult, right? You`re saying disregard that now, right? Because it doesn`t mean what it say the, right?
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Objection (INAUDIBLE).
JUDGE: All right, we`re going to take the recess at this time. Ladies and gentlemen, Monday, 9:30 in the morning. Please remember the admonition. Are there any question?
MORET: Wow, wow. Talk about a cliff-hanger. We are left -- trial is done for the day. We`re left with the question, was Snow White a battered woman? I couldn`t make this up.
Coming up, she`s back. Juror number five makes a shocking appearance in court.
Coming up, we will hear what you think about hair. Jodi Arias` hair on DR. DREW.
We`ve got a report card. You are watching DR. DREW. I`m Jim More, filling in.
Back with more right after this.
MORET: Good evening. Never a dull moment in this trial. Snow White was the shocking twist today. I don`t think anybody saw that one coming. I`m Jim Moret from "Inside Edition," sitting in for Dr. Drew tonight. With me co-host for the week, Attorney Mark Eiglarsh. Mark, just look here. I`m you in 15 years. I just want you to see that. SpeaktoMark.com is his website.
Mark, what do you think briefly before we go to Beth Karas from "In Session." What do you think briefly about what we`ve seen?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Listen, I tell my law students on the first day in class, if you`re ever in a death penalty case, leave the Disney metaphors out of the courtroom. Are you kidding me? Come on, Jim. You got to feel the same way.
MORET: I do. I`m fascinated by this --
EIGLARSH: I`m rooting for --
MORET: Beth, this is crazy. You and I have been covering a lot of trials together. I did not see this one coming.
BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT "IN SESSION": Well, no, but he took a speech that she gives. She gives various versions of it, shorter, longer versions. She`s been giving it for a while. It`s on YouTube. And it`s titled with "Snow White, a battered woman." She says it`s a catchy title. That`s not her point in the speech. I haven`t listened to the hour plus speech that I did pull up on YouTube.
But she says she talks about the balance of power or imbalance of power in relationships. I don`t know. Maybe she says that little girls we were taught that, you know, our prince charming will come along and take care of us some day. I`m not sure. I don`t know what the speech is. But, Juan Martinez is using it to say, wait a second, you know, you can find abuse in any situation. You`re even calling Snow White an abused woman. I think that`s what he`s saying.
MORET: -- do you think the jurors are going what is going on here?
KARAS: I don`t know the answer to that, but I do know that, at this point, so late in the game here, although this is only the tenth witness for the defense. They know Juan Martinez`s style. They`ve seen him cross examine nine of the prior defense witnesses. So, he is probably not, you know, offending any of them.
In fact, juror number five, seated in the gallery broke out in a big smile when Juan Martinez got up to begin his cross-examination.
MORET: OK. And we got a short block, I want to get to all our guests. Joining us, attorney Lauren Lake, forensic psychologist, Cheryl Arutt, and attorney, Loni Coombs. Lauren, what do you think of all these Snow White references.
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: I cannot even believe he`s going there. I find it to be so confusing. And if we want to equate Jodi Arias with Snow White, Snow White`s someone we root for, that we love. I don`t know where he`s going with this, but the visual is off. I think it`s confusing.
And confusing lends itself to defense. And like Mark said, we`re rooting for this guy, but he`s got to reel it back in. He`s too vicious with this particular witness and his whole line of questioning, I think, is offbeat.
MORET: Loni, that`s a great point. Really, we do root for Snow White. And if you`re a prosecutor you do not want the jurors to root for Jodi Arias, and that`s what may be happening here, right?
LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: Yes. I have to tell you, my frustration with Juan Martinez today went through the roof with this cross-examination. This was a golden opportunity for him to take this defense witness and turn her into his own expert to support the prosecution case. He could have gone through all of the evidence that showed that Jodi was stalking, that she was possessive, and that this escalation of violence that she was talking about was what Jodi did when she killed Travis.
It would have been extremely effective, but apparently, Juan only knows one speed, and that is attack, attack, attack. And this is a likable (ph) witness and knowledgeable and he could have used her to so much benefit, and he didn`t.
MORET: Cheryl, you have the last minute.
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Jim, welcome, by the way, to Dr. Drew.
MORET: Thank you.
ARUTT: I don`t know whether we were watching sleepy, dopey, or grumpy when we`re watching the scene tonight.
ARUTT: I think grumpy is what everybody turned into that dwarf. I think you`re right. If he had been able to, just in an offhand comment say isn`t it true that you even called Snow White a battered woman and went on with it there and did what Loni Coombs was talking about and laid out what Jodi was doing as a perpetrator, I think that would have been a lot more effective than going over and over this in such an overly detailed way.
EIGLARSH: Let me make the final point here. The big issue here is that she relied upon lies to make her conclusion. That`s the big picture. Don`t get lost on the little stuff.
MORET: And next, we`ve got to take a break here. More of Jodi`s parents from those revealing police tapes. Her dad says her daughter is a peeping tom.
And later, Jodi`s new hairdo, a lot of you have given it an F. We`ll get out grades and see whether we should send her back to beauty school. Back with more right after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She called me, crying hysterically when she decided to move to Mesa, Arizona. She snuck up at his house. And she looked in the window and saw him on the couch with another woman. Here she was planning on marrying this guy. So, she just left, but then, she stayed there, you know, for I don`t know how many months, six months or so.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that`s what I couldn`t -- she couldn`t explain either. I said if you guys had broken up, why didn`t you just leave? Why didn`t you go home? She says, well, I just didn`t. I just didn`t. She could not tell me why.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORET: I`m Jim Moret from "Inside Edition" filling in for Drew. It`s time for Dr. Drew`s behavior bureau. And let`s go -- bringing in Mark Eiglarsh. Joining us also, psychologist, Dr. Wendy Walsh, my friend, author of "Thirty-Day Love Detox," forensic psychologist, Cheryl Arutt, infidelity expert, Danine Manette, author of "Ultimate Betrayal."
Mark, you know, this was a troubling little interview here with the dad. I mean, he`s basically describing his daughter who sounds crazy.
EIGLARSH: Yes. I think that it might come into play primarily in the penalty phase when if she`s convicted of first degree murder as I suspect. The defense is going to try to portray her as somebody with a mental defect or a mental disease, something in order to get them to consider the mitigators and spare her the death penalty.
MORET: Danine when the dad says that she sees Travis with another woman, yet, she stays. You know, that`s -- look, that`s the disturbing aspect, obviously of that particular sound bite because you`re hearing a dad described his daughter doing something that just doesn`t make any sense.
DANINE MANETTE, INFIDELITY EXPERT: You know, this is the classic example of someone who is so used to being calculated and manipulative and doing whatever it takes to get what they want, finally being confronted with a situation where they`re not wanted any more. So, rather than put on her big girl bloomers and hit the road, she decides to employ the old adage if I can`t have you, no one will.
And that`s why we find ourselves in a situation where in now where we have a slaughtered guy on the ground. And you know, in her mind, she feels justified in this, because she feels like he rejected her, rejected her as a person, and you know, he deserves that. That`s why she could look and lie with a straight face.
MORET: And Dr. Wendy Walsh who wrote "Love Detox," this sounds like toxic love to me.
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., AUTHOR, "30-DAY LOVE DETOX": This really was a toxic love. It was a traumatic bond. And believe it or not, in her headspace, and this isn`t defending her, this is just trying to explain that the only way she could actually get away from him was to end him, because she was in this weird toxic kind of bond with him.
And, you know what? I think mark is right is that this whole trial has been about trying to get some kind of understanding or sympathy for her. I don`t actually believe myself that the jury even thinks that they`re going to decide guilt or innocence, but really, it`s about the penalty at the end of the day. Is she going to --
MORET: And we`ll have more -- I`ve got to cut you off. We got to take a hard break here. We`ll be back with more right after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORET: Wow! The voice of an angel. It`s time for Dr. Drew`s report card. Welcome back. I`m Jim Moret from "Inside Edition," filling in for Dr. Drew, co-host, Mark Eiglarsh, is with me. Mark, I don`t know, you know, what do you, what -- I don`t even know. I don`t know where to go. What do you think? This is the report card. Save your grade, but let`s talk about -- let`s talk about what`s going on here.
EIGLARSH: Jim, when I got a call and I was told that today we`d be grading Jodi`s hair, for five minutes, literally, I asked the producer, are you joking?
MORET: Talk man-to-man with me. I like hair up.
EIGLARSH: Oh, no.
MORET: My son and I were talking about this. We had this discussion. I swear to you, yesterday, we both like hair up. I do not like her hair. I know what they`re going for. They`re trying to make her look sympathetic. They`re trying to make her look plain. It`s not working for me.
EIGLARSH: Really? We`re having this discussion? This is the man-to- man discussion we`re having? Really?
EIGLARSH: The only reason why I will engage in this conversation is because the courtroom is theater and I do make sure my clients look appropriately and whether it`s down, whether it`s up, her hair looks appropriate, no matter how vile her behavior was when she killed this man.
MORET: OK. Cheryl Arutt, at least, I see you smiling off camera. So, you will entertain this conversation, what do you think?
ARUTT: I am very entertained, actually, by this conversation. I think we have to acknowledge this. In the theater of this trial and in this case, she`s got some of the hardest working hair in Hollywood. This woman has used her hair as ava-va-voom vixen. She`s used her hair to cover her face, to hide the stuck (ph) that`s -- crying. She`s used her hair in so many different ways.
Her hair is probably an asset for her. And I think that she`s doing really well in terms of using the hair to do the more dowdy girl kind of thing right now. Is it an attractive look? No, but that`s not the point.
MORET: Ah! It isn`t the point. Loni, you`re her attorney right for now. I know you`re former prosecutor. What do you think about her hair?
COOMBS: Well, I`ll tell you. First of all, I mean, the realities of it is being in the jail system, you don`t get a lot of choices as far as resources and products for your hair. So, she`s doing a pretty good job. And I`ll tell you it`s so important. I did a two-month trial once where I had my hair in a bun the entire time. During jury deliberations, the jury had a question, they came out. That day, I happened to have my hair down.
Literally, three of the female jurors spontaneously said, oh, I like your hair like that. They notice these things. They pay attention. They connect with them. They`re bored most of the time during this trial. They can`t talk about the evidence. They can`t talk about the case. So, they talk about clothes, they talk about hairstyles. It all goes to what they perceive.
MORET: That`s why you did well in the courtroom. Lauren Lake, quickly, we`ve got about 30 seconds, before we get your letter grade, hair, like it or not?
LAKE: This is not the time to be getting your Beyonce or your Brook Shields on, even though it`s theater and stage. She`s giving us Marsha Brady (ph). That`s what she needs to do. And I like the fact that it`s pulled back off her face. It symbolizes I have nothing to hide. If I was her lawyer, I would put it in a ponytail, though.
MORET: I got you all to talk about hair. Quickly, around the horn as Drew likes to say. Mark, your grade?
EIGLARSH: A for acceptable. That`s it.
MORET: OK. Loni?
COOMBS: I give her an A-, because she`s bang challenged. I think she needs to work with those bangs.
COOMBS: I have to balance between a C for aesthetic and an A for the goal of being kind of dowdy. So, I give her a B.
MORET: OK. And last one, Lauren?
LAKE: B-. Can`t stand the bangs.
MORET: OK. Overall GPA.
MORET: You know, this is the highlight of my broadcast career. 3.5, a B+ for Jodi`s hair. I never thought it`d be here, but here we are. We`ll be back with more of Dr. Drew right after this. Thanks for joining us.
MORET: It`s time for Dr. Drew`s jury. I`m Jim Moret sitting in for Dr. Drew tonight. With me all week is attorney, Mark Eiglarsh from SpeaktoMark.com, but right now, let`s go to the Dr. Drew`s jurors, Katie Wick and Jen Strange (ph). Katie, before we get to Jodi`s hair. And I know Mark didn`t want to talk about it.
EIGLARSH: We`re done with that.
MORET: I know, but they were talking about it. Did your jaw drop when you saw juror number five, yes, the one who was kicked off. She was back in court today in the gallery. She was right there with everybody else. Did you just -- what was your reaction?
KATIE WICK, IN ARIAS COURTROOM: She was. And I had just heard right before I walked in, the bailiff came out, and she warned the public. She says there`s going to be somebody in there you`re going to recognize here. Don`t talk to her. Don`t do anything with her. And I thought, we`re going to recognize her, the juror five, I had the gut filing.
I walked in. She was sitting in my row six seats down from me. I saw her a couple times. Actually, I thought, you know what? She`s public now. So, she has the right to be here just like everybody else. Was I shocked? Absolutely.
MORET: Jan, what was your reaction? What did you perceive? I mean, she was there and watching and interested. What are the other jurors saying?
JEN STRANGE (PH), IN ARIAS COURTROOM: You know, nobody really said a word. People kept looking over at her. But because we -- you know, we were strictly told not to interact with her, not to talk with her, not to have anything to do with her, but she got a lot of looks throughout the entire afternoon.
WICK: One of the times I noticed --
MORET: We got Paul on the phone. Paul, you have a quick question? Paul?
PAUL, PENNSYLVANIA: Yes. I have a quick comment. I think Juan Martinez is doing a great job starting out his cross-examination with Snow White, because I think the whole story is a myth just like Jodi Arias` story.
MORET: OK. That`s one viewer`s perspective. I`m just getting a lot of -- all through this. Very quickly from our jurors. Very quickly, an A, B, C, on the hair.
WICK: On Jodi`s hair?
WICK: A D. What was that today? That was different.
MORET: We have to take a break. We`ll be back with more right after this. Don`t go away. I got another grade on the hair.
MORET: Thanks to Dr. Drew for letting me take your chair tonight. Thank you also to my co-host, Mark Eiglarsh, who had a haircut a couple of days ago. And until it close in, I give it an A-
EIGLARSH: Jim, can we bring home one point?
MORET: "HLN After Dark" starts right now. Don`t go away.
EIGLARSH: Are we done?