On March 7, 2013, Jodi Arias returned to the witness stand in a last ditch effort to convince the jury that she killed Travis Alexander in self-defense. Jurors asked more than 200 questions of the woman charged with first-degree murder, many of which focused on her memory issues and claims that she cannot recall stabbing Travis Alexander 29 times.
|Jodi Arias and Travis Alexander|
Though it is impossible to determine how the jury will rule in the case, the nature of the questions seem to indicate that the majority want more information regarding the lies told in the case as well as Arias' claims.
Do you feel that Jodi Arias has convinced the jury of her self defense claims?
Jodi Has Answers for Everything
Aired March 7, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Day 17, Jodi Arias on the stand. TV`s newest reality star has an answer for everything.
JUDGE: After all the lies you have told, why should we believe you now?
JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: Lying isn`t typically something I just do.
PINSKY: But how does she explain this?
TRAVIS ALEXANDER, VICTIM: And I got this gun against my head.
ARIAS: She was holding the gun at my forehead.
PINSKY: Last night, I called her a castrating kitty. But is she a copycat as well?
Plus, we have the first ever interview with one of Travis Alexander`s roommate. This young man says Travis confided in him about his concerns regarding Jodi. What were Travis` real feelings for her? What did he tell his roommate?
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening.
I`m joined by my co-host, Sirius XM Radio host Jenny Hutt this evening.
Jenny, we ended the show last night, really interesting program, learned a lot, and hopefully tonight we`ll do the same. You asked me a question at the close of the show. It was provocative. It was interesting.
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Yes, would you like me to ask it again?
HUTT: OK. So, I want to know what it means when a man predominantly wants to have anal sex with his woman.
PINSKY: OK. And I said that I thought it had something to do with technicalities about his Mormon faith. We`re going to have some guests on this evening. They`re going to address that issue and then some of our experts will address what it is if it`s not just about the Mormonism.
HUTT: OK. Good. Yes, thanks.
PINSKY: All right. With us now, attorney Mark Eiglarsh with SpeaktoMark.com, former prosecutor Marcia Clark, author of "Guilt by Degrees", and Janine Driver, author of "You Can`t Lie to Me". I call her the human lie detector.
But first, here`s Jodi.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE: After all the lies you have told, why should we believe you now?
ARIAS: Lying isn`t typically something I just do.
JUDGE: Have you ever had any situations where you have raised your voice?
ARIAS: Yes, probably a million times.
JUDGE: If you were scared of what Travis was capable of doing, why would you ever let him tie you up?
ARIAS: When that occurred, he was in a very good mood. They were loose enough to wiggle out of.
JUDGE: How far away from you was Travis when the gun went off? Not when he lunged but when the gun went off.
ARIAS: The lunging and the gun going off was sort of contemporaneous. As far as distance, maybe as far as Mr. Babakis (ph). In California when I took apart my razor and was going to do that, that was the only serious attempt I made. Other than that it`s just like ideation.
JUDGE: Have you utilized professional help?
ARIAS: I have not had access to professional help, no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: But perhaps, honey, you should have availed yourself of such professional help before all of this went down. It`s a good lesson for everybody.
HUTT: Yes. Ooh.
PINSKY: "In Session" correspondent Beth Karas was there for yet another day of Jodi`s justifications and her answering of the questions.
Beth, the question for you is, does -- in the room, do those questions feel mocking of Jodi?
BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: Well, sort of. They seem to be challenging her memory all the time. Sometimes she has really good recall of details, other times she gets foggy and she`s shaking and she`s just kind of all over the place with that.
So she`s sort of talking in circles and contradicting herself sometimes. But some had them are really mocking, too, like how could you kiss another man after you did what you did to Travis? And that was a reference to kissing rather aggressively Ryan Burns about 15 hours after she mutilated Travis Alexander.
HUTT: I also think she has a very interesting use of the English language.
PINSKY: She does.
HUTT: I mean --
PINSKY: Yes, she`s always trying to display her vocabulary.
Janine, did that mean anything to you, and what did you see today?
JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: I call this "convince, not convey", Dr. Drew. Truthful people convey information. Liars try to convince us, and we hear that overselling, this overconfidence. However, I`m in the business of predicting patterns and behavior. I`m not a psychic. I`m a bio language expert. I`m a person that looks for patterns of behavior. And it`s here.
And what I can predict about Jodi is when these questions are done, we`re going to see her going back to looking down, diverting her eye contact, disappearing, fake crying. We will see that Jodi reappear sooner than later.
PINSKY: Why? Why is that? Why did this one that was responding to the questions from the jury seem so much more lively?
DRIVER: This is her pattern of behavior. She`s a "convince, not conveyor", Dr. Drew. So, what she`s trying to do is -- this is her moment to connect. She knows these questions from the jurors.
PINSKY: Right. Got it.
DRIVER: So, it`s almost her way of saying, "Great question, guys. I like that question. Here`s the answer."
When she goes back to the attorneys, we`re going to see her diverting eye contact and we`ll see her fake crying once again.
PINSKY: Got it. I got it. I get it.
Mark, do you agree with that? And is the reason they`re keeping her on the stand so long is simply to try to save her life? I can understand that with the jury being with her so long, it would be hard to give her the death sentence.
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: Well, I`m starting to think that these lawyers went to the Helsinki school of law, you know? After a while, they`ll just give in to whatever she wants.
Now, I think that`s she`s in it to win it. She still believes that a jury won`t convict her. And by that, she`s looking for at least one juror who hangs this up, who will not agree with the rest.
The defense attorneys, I think they know, Drew. When I go through the facts with my clients detail by detail, the day that I go through that, I know whether I got a good shot.
These people, when she said, after I shot him, yes, fog. Yes. But, what about the stabbing and the slitting of the throat? Yes, we`re going to go with fog on that?
But what about the deleting of the camera, the photo, putting it in the washing machine? Still fog? Yes, fog.
Kissing Ryan 15 hours later? I`m going to go with fog on that.
EIGLARSH: It`s about saving her life.
PINSKY: Now, today, I thought the prosecution got a leg up on her when they were asking her about her feelings around what happened and she talked about being horrified and being -- well, not really scared. Mind you at first she said he`s such a scary guy. Well, I`m not scared. Oh, no, wait a minute, I was horrified, I was horrified at what I had done -- and that I thought was a real window of opportunity.
HUTT: But, Dr. Drew, I feel like nothing she says is reasonable. At one point, she said I don`t think it`s right to kill another person if they`re about to kill you.
PINSKY: Marcia, I agree with Jenny. What about that? She says things like -- that`s in that sort of general category of, Jodi would never do that.
MARCIA CLARK, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yes. You know, she says a lot of contradictory things, and she`s definitely eating her own tail at this point. Although, Drew, I don`t think I would want to, in the context of this case, talk about anybody getting a leg up on anybody.
PINSKY: Thank you.
CLARK: You`re welcome.
So, I had to say it. I`m sorry. I`m sorry.
CLARK: But -- I`m sorry. But I do agree with Mark. I want to go with the fog on that, the fog on that.
And a lot of the jury`s questions did go to that very point. They said, look, you know, your memory fails you here, but what about there? What about here and what about there? She`s really contradicting herself.
She has to be nice to the jury. These are the people who decide her fate, her life or death. So, she has to deal with these questions in a very forthcoming way or at least appear to be.
But she`s not. I mean, everything is jumbled. It`s contradictory. It makes very little sense.
But the story never made sense to begin with.
CLARK: That you believe -- that you -- that you can remember every detail and then suddenly you go into a fog when it comes to the actual murder? It`s really bad.
EIGLARSH: Well, hold on. There is one thing we have to give her credit for. She did bring to light a really significant epidemic, and that is you just can`t get a rental car these days without the tag being turned upside down, right? And those pesky teenagers --
PINSKY: Don`t forget, the nuance of shopping for gas cans.
HUTT: The gas cans.
PINSKY: The cans -- you know, this wasn`t the right one, I had to take it back. I had to take that one back. I didn`t like the pattern on it.
DRIVER: Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Yes, Janine?
DRIVER: Dr. Drew, when she says murder is wrong, I believe she`s giving an embedded command to the jury saying, don`t kill me, because by you determining if I`m going to get killed, it is the wrong thing.
PINSKY: I love that. Janine, my love for Janine. I think you`re absolutely right.
PINSKY: OK, we`ll keep this going.
Mark, you`ve never used a tactic like that? Is that what you`re saying? Come on now.
OK. Next up, Jodi`s interview with "48 Hours." It sounds a lot like Travis` own words from the exclusive interview we aired yesterday. There`s the video you see yesterday. You`ve got to see this.
We`re going to compare what he`s saying with the "48 Hours" interview. It`s really -- well, I went from her being a castrating kitty to a copycat. You`ll see what I`m talking about.
And later, did Jodi hide in Travis` closet when he brought other women home? I have a guest who have some shocking insights.
Back after this.
PINSKY: Time now for what we`re calling my "Behavior Bureau". This is something I was begging my producers we do. And we have now -- we did it yesterday. You guys seemed to like it. I think it`s an important part of the show.
We`re bringing in some of our exquisite experts to discuss the things we`re seeing in the trial today.
Back with my co-host for the week, Jenny Hutt, from Sirius XM Radio.
Now, remember last night, I asked my behavior panel.
Can we see the panel up here, guys? Can we see the panel, guys?
We asked them yesterday if you remember -- where are they? Come on, get them up there. There they are. There`s my panel for tonight. Janine Driver, we got Emily Morse and I have Cheryl Arutt.
OK, guys, last night, I asked you to tell me from your gut what you were seeing on that exclusive video we were showing, and you said there was a different person there, she looked very feline, and I said there was a weird castrating quality to what that feline was doing.
Well, tonight, we`re going to show you guys, some tape that suggests she`s a copycat. We`re going to show you exclusive video we`ve been showing you of where Travis talks about being robbed at gunpoint and it sounded very familiar to me.
So, we start to looking around -- lo and behold, Jodi Arias` story on "48 Hours" started to look exactly the same to us. Take a look at this, guys.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
ALEXANDER: (INAUDIBLE) get down on my knees, and he said I had like five seconds to distribute the wad. And I got this gun against my temple. He keeps doing this.
ARIAS: She was holding the gun to my forehead, and I was on the ground on my knees.
ALEXANDER: I`m seeing myself face down. They say your life flashes before your eyes. I can`t say that.
ARIAS: I just remember holding my head and closing my eyes.
ALEXANDER: I`m wondering like (INAUDIBLE) pull the trigger.
ARIAS: He pulled the trigger and nothing happened.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
PINSKY: Anyone want to react?
HUTT: Yes. Where is the fog now, Dr. Drew? Now her memory is crystal clear and she`s copying completely.
PINSKY: Well, she has a good memory, she told us. Don`t forget, there was just a fog that came over her.
HUTT: Fog, yes.
PINSKY: I want to get, first of all, get Cheryl Arutt -- your gut reaction to the video.
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I guess the cat it out of the bag now, Dr. Drew, now that we`ve got this exclusive video to compare the two stories.
I think that her memory and the "48 Hours" interview is so sharp and it really proves the lie about how her memory goes when she gets scared. She must have been scared if it were a true story about the gun to her head, but the memory is crystal clear.
PINSKY: And how about Emily? Emily, do you have an opinion about that video?
EMILY MORSE, SEX EXPERT: Yes. I mean, to me it seems like, yes, she`s a complete copycat. It`s manipulative. We obviously know she`s changed her story so many times. And that we think she`s sleeping on the couch, but yet she retells the exact same story again, it happened to her. It`s amazing you guys caught this.
PINSKY: And, Janine, it goes right to what -- her own defense attorney asked her today in court, which is -- why should anyone believe her now?
DRIVER: Dr. Drew, I call this the Kaiser Soze, you remember "The Usual Suspects" with Kevin Spacey? This is the Kaiser Soze move. You look around the room. A guy named Mr. Coffee was there. He was from Columbia.
And you gather information based on the truth. These tend to be the hardest lies to catch. Why? Because it`s truthful to somebody else, and when you retell it because you`ve heard it so many times, it almost seems believable.
But we know it`s Kaiser Soze. It`s her gathering information. We`re looking for this behavior. And I`m in the behavior pattern business, and here I call B.S.
HUTT: I`m surprised that Martinez didn`t find this.
PINSKY: Well, now, he may.
HUTT: Well, now, he will. But up until now?
PINSKY: If they`re watching this.
That, and again, he left some stuff sort of dangling in court. Did you notice that today, Janine, that there were some areas he just sort of left out there.
DRIVER: Yes. It`s very interesting, I agree with Mark on this one, and it`s tough because I don`t like it when I agree with Mark. But Mark says it`s kind of like this clown school of being an attorney. I think he`s doing an OK job, the prosecutor, but I think leaving these issues out there very interesting.
Again, I can`t stress it enough. We`re going to see the old Jodi Arias where she`s going to stare down, where she`s going to start fake crying. She will reappear.
So whether the questions are being asked or not in the next couple days to the next week, we will see the old Jodi coming back.
PINSKY: Christine in Michigan with a comment about the video. Christine, go ahead.
CHRISTINE, CALLER FROM MICHIGAN: Yes, I made this observation last night when Hollie and Jacob first aired the video about the simulation between --
PINSKY: So, Christine, you saw it right away. You saw his near-death experience he was discussing in front of his friends there as precisely the same as what she encountered in the "48 Hours" interview?
CALLER: Yes, there`s way too many similarities. And as calculating as she is, I guarantee you she -- I guarantee you she was listening to every word that he was saying and used it to save her own --
PINSKY: Well, not only that, though.
But, Cheryl, back me up on this. It`s back to something you and I talked about way back about Jodi, this chameleon-like phenomenon, this emptiness that she has. She`s got to collect a lot of data all the time to try to behave the way she thinks people should behave.
ARUTT: That`s right, Dr. Drew. She draws on information.
I thought the Kaiser Soze comment was brilliant because I thought of Kevin Spacey and "The Usual Suspects" also, that same moment. Whether it`s modeling herself after other people, or after other things that she can`t pick up on to try to be, she doesn`t have a core inside. And so, this lends itself to the lies.
PINSKY: Jenny, this has been the thing we`ve been discussing with her from way back before she took the stand. We started seeing her sort of take on the characteristics of people around her.
HUTT: Right. Or what`s going to work for her, or what she thinks is gong to work of her.
PINSKY: That`s the part that`s happening in the courtroom that is so creepy.
Now, more with our behavior bureau coming up.
And later, what grade you give the jury for the questions they`ve been asking. We`ve got a report card.
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE: Why did you wait for so long to tell the truth?
ARIAS: Again, it took -- it took a long time. It took a long time for me to get to this point.
JUDGE: Were you ever physical to Travis besides when you killed him?
ARIAS: I think when he was choking me.
JUDGE: How do you explain the blood on your hands and clothes and the bloody palm print on the wall?
ARIAS: Well --
JUDGE: Why do three separate transactions?
ARIAS: Well, what I do recall is when I filled the gas cans, it was a gradual process and I began to feel not right about keeping it in instead.
JUDGE: Would you decide to tell the truth if you never got arrested?
ARIAS: I honestly don`t know the answer to that question.
JUDGE: How can you say that you don`t have memory issues when you can`t remember how you stabbed him so many times and slashed his throat?
ARIAS: Well, I think that I have a good memory.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my "Behavior Bureau" and my co-host Jenny Hut.
There she is, Jenny, just taking her time, omitting (ph), wheeling, hesitating.
HUTT: Yes. But, Dr. Drew, we`re talking about a copycat and then it dawned on me -- who`s the copycat now, today?
PINSKY: Oh, there we go. That`s what I`m talking about.
So what you`re saying is we need to sort of stay away from you?
HUTT: Yes, I don`t know.
PINSKY: If I`m going to refer any of my friends to you for dates, I need to be cautious. I`m just saying.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good luck.
PINSKY: Emily, could you put on a pair of glasses? You`re dressed a little bit like her.
MORSE: I know, we`re all wearing the red thing. I don`t have any glasses. No, but, you know, I don`t have that.
PINSKY: One thing you don`t have, Emily, you do -- you have a Web site called "Sex with Emily", do sex relationship analysis, and we saw a big old sore on poor Jodi`s lips today.
MORSE: Yes. We had Jodi and the cold sore on the stand today.
MORSE: I couldn`t even listen to what she was saying. She wasn`t even saying anything articulately. She has a cold sore.
And obviously that`s a sign of stress, if you have a cold sore. But it also be -- you know, I don`t know what she`s getting up to in prison.
PINSKY: Oh, Emily.
HUTT: This isn`t fair only because I suffer from cold sores. If I don`t --
PINSKY: Yes, they`re common. They are typically herpes, on the outside of the mouth they are typically herpes viruses. They can be transferred to other parts of the body.
There you go. Put that out there.
PINSKY: There you go.
Emily, now you really scare me.
Janine, let`s get right to what we saw in that clip coming into this segment. She was hesitating and gulping and licking her lips. And Jenny had a question, too.
HUTT: Janine, what about the squirreling (ph) around in her chair?
DRIVER: Yes. So, she`s moving, that`s letting energy. We call this move your body, move your mind. When you move your body, you`re moving your mind. You`re decreasing your stress and anxiety.
What I -- which is a great question, Jenny. My biggest concern here is the "wells". She said "well" several times. I call this the fishing well. Well, this is call the stalling tactic, Jenny and Dr. Drew. It`s saying, I`m buying time, and I`m going to tell the truth, what`s my story?
So, we hear the fishing well several times. And when she`s stalling, this is interesting, she pauses a lot. Where we typically se from a typical liar someone who doesn`t have as much power or beauty as her, they will do a lot of um, um, um, um. We`re not hearing a lot of those, but guess who else we didn`t hear a lot of them from? Scott Peterson.
When Scott Peterson was telling the truth, he had lots and lots of ums. But when Scott Peterson was lying to us, the ums decreased the ums decreased -- why? Because he knows ums are considered a sign of deception, so he just simply did what Jodi is doing. He paused. And we see it here with Jodi.
PINSKY: Oh, interesting. Also, I got the feeling during those "wells" that she was getting ready she`s like, let me get together with you guys and tell you what happened. Let me just --
DRIVER: If you ask your kid, did you make your bed this morning? And he says to you --
PINSKY: Well --
DRIVER: Well, I went to up -- you say, get up there and make your bed, young man.
HUTT: You`re so right, Janine.
PINSKY: OK. Thank you to our behavior today. They will be back with us next week.
Later, we`re going to get into this conversation that Jenny brought up yesterday about the Mormon faith and this is -- listen, we are not judging anybody. But the whole issue in these trials has been about the Mormonism --
HUTT: Right, it keeps coming up in conversation.
PINSKY: And the sexual behaviors and the anal sex and what`s off limits. We`ll try to explain this.
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE: Did Travis` closet doors have locks on them?
ARIAS: I don`t remember them having any locks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And that was Jodi speaking about Travis Alexander`s closet. There`s a reason we bring that up. You`ll see that in just a minute.
I`m here with my co-host this week, Jenny Hutt.
Joining us now is Travis` former roommate, Charlie Ethington and his wife, Autumn. Autumn, I`m going to start with you. You told one of our producers that one of the tactics that Jodi used when stalking Travis -- and I`m using that word intentionally, I believe that`s your word -- she would hide in his closet. Can you tell us about that?
AUTUMN ETHINGTON, TRAVIS LIKE AN UNCLE TO HER KIDS: Yes. Thanks for having us on the show, Dr. Drew. I am a little nervous, I`ll be honest. A bunch of friends we were talking about things that had happened, and one of them said that she would hide in his closet and when he get home from a date, he`d open his closet and she`d be standing there and he`s like, what is going on? You need to leave me alone.
And other times she`d say that she would fall asleep on his bed while she was cleaning his house and he`d come home and she`ll be laying there, sneak in the middle of the night and be on his couch downstairs and just bug him.
JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: I mean, if she`s cleaning his house and they`re also having sex, I think it`s OK if she lies down in his bed.
PINSKY: But she was -- they were not together, and -- reminder, there`s one thing that has not come up in court is the stalking behaviors and the tires that were slashed, all the things that have made people like Autumn and Charlie who knew them both well. You were actually a roommate, Charlie, for a while.
And, my understanding is Travis also used to come and babysit your kids. You have four kids, I understand, and he would be around them all the time. Did you ever, either of you, have any concern that Travis had any issues with children as Jodi is alleging?
CHARLIE ETHINGTON, TRAVIS ALEXANDER`S FRIEND: Not at all. I mean, he watched our son, who`s our first son. He was a couple of years old with some of our other friends within prepaid legal, I know he watched their kids, too, and there was never a sense of any of that stuff going on. I think we would have picked up on that.
AUTUMN ETHINGTON: Yes. If I ever had any type of feeling that he had pedophile or any type of thing like that, I would be out of there so fast. My children are number one.
PINSKY: Now, you guys have provided us with new photos that we`re looking alongside of you guys. Thank you for that. And he looks very young in a lot of these photos. How long did you know him, Charlie?
CHARLIE ETHINGTON: Autumn and I actually met him back in 1998. And, so, it`s been a few years.
PINSKY: And were you ever part of the chorus of friends that sort of warned him about Jodi?
CHARLIE ETHINGTON: Absolutely, yes.
PINSKY: Can you tell us about that, what you told him and how she responded or what maybe she has said to you guys that led you to be so creeped out?
CHARLIE ETHINGTON: Yes. There was a time where I actually went over to Travis` house to pick him up for one of these business meetings we were headed to, and you got to know Travis. He was actually very militant on be on time, being early, never out of character for him not to be ready.
So, when I showed up to his house, he was standing at the top of the stairs still in his robe and not even ready. And I asked him what was going on, and you could tell he was very flustered. He told me that he was tired of Jodi, just having some issues with her, threw his phone across the room, and you could tell he was very upset about her.
I said, what`s going on, and he said that she was smothering him and too clingy, and that was kind of an odd experience that I experienced firsthand with Travis and with Jodi.
PINSKY: We have a call from someone in Massachusetts, Judith, who has a question for Charlie. Judith.
JUDITH, MASSACHUSETTS: Hi. Yes, Dr. Drew. It`s a question for friends and anyone on the panel. I realize watching the testimony that there are times when I totally believe Jodi is lying through her teeth, but when she talks about Travis having, quote, "passed away," unquote, I just find myself yelling at the television and saying, you killed him.
He didn`t pass away, you idiot. You killed him. I just wondered if other people had the same reaction.
PINSKY: Marcia Clark is shaking her head rather vigorously at your comment. And Marcia, you deal with some unsavory types across your career. So, this speaks to you in some way. Tell me about it.
MARCIA CLARK, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Oh, absolutely does. And I totally agree with your caller. Yes, it`s disgusting. It`s actually offensive and insulting to hear her say passed away. You killed him. What are you talking about, he passed away? It`s no accident. He didn`t die of a disease, you murdered him.
And I think it`s actually going to be something that`s going to be offensive to the jury as well, and I think that some of these questions you`re hearing questioning her credibility, there was some questions I thought, whatever. But there were quite a few --
CLARK: We`ll get into those later, I have a feeling. But there were quite a few questions that went right to the heart of the matter that went to the contradictions she has posed in her answers about the loss of memory and the fog and then she remembers and she doesn`t and the illogic of it all.
So, I think so it was the most defensive part of her testimony is the way I think she has deliberately maligned Travis. I don`t believe anything she has said about him, the pedophilia and all of the abusiveness. I don`t buy it, not for one second.
HUTT: Well, I also don`t buy it when she said that -- when they asked her did she feel sad or jealous when he said he was interested in this other woman that he was maybe going to want to marry, and she said, no, it was bittersweet, because even though they weren`t together, she was happy he had found love. And that just is not even kind of true for someone who had loved him so much unconditionally? I mean, the whole thing --
PINSKY: But Mark, I got to leapfrog over you hit to Janine because I see her she`s loaded up like a gun, herself. Go ahead, Janine.
JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: I`m like, bring it to me after Marcia. This is called minimizing language when she says he passed away. We see this a lot in law enforcement with people who have caused a dramatic harm. They won`t say, I didn`t kill her, they`ll say, I didn`t hurt her.
Jerry Sandusky was asked, did you molest these kids? Did you sodomize the boy in the shower? And he said, I love children. I didn`t hurt children. So, this minimizing language is a tool that we use in law enforcement to flip it to get it confession. Is there any reason why, you know, we know that you hurt her by mistake? We know you didn`t mean to hurt her.
Why did you force yourself on her instead of saying why did you rape her? So, we used this as a tool in law enforcement to minimize the crime to get you to tell us the truth. I`m in the business of truth fact finding. So, here, when a bad person, which is disgusting when a Jodi Arias minimizes it by saying he passed away, it`s a hot spot.
PINSKY: Mark, you want to put a button on that?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. Like your last caller, I`m not the only one yelling at the TV screen for many reasons. I want to get in there.
There are so many moments like the time when she claimed that she didn`t think that the gun was loaded, but nevertheless, went for the gun, risked her life to get to that gun because, apparently, he`s so dangerous, points a gun at him, and the question the jurors ask, well, why would you point a gun at him that you thought might be unloaded?
Her response made me laugh out loud, because I`ve learned that when you point a gun at someone, loaded or not, they`ll immediately put their hands up. What? You`d point an unloaded gun at someone who knows his gun is unloaded?
PINSKY: Right. Thank you to Charlie and Autumn. I do appreciate you come in here and sharing your thoughts and bring us some of those photographs. Again, it`s always, for us, very, very sad to talk to the friends and see those -- that`s bittersweet to see the pictures of him in happier times. Thank you, guys.
Now, we`re going to get to the bottom of all these -- what should we call them, sexual?
HUTT: Anal sex.
PINSKY: That`s what the question -- Jenny, thank you. I had trouble thinking of that word, I guess. No, it was that these exceptions, like this way is OK and that`s not OK, and what`s Mormon and what about a guy that`s into that? What does that say? That`s what you`ve been asking me since last night. We`ll get to that.
It is time next for our trial report card. Tonight, we`re grading the jury for their questions. Stay with us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you enjoy having sex with Travis? You mentioned the pain of sex is one of the reasons you brought K-Y into the relationship? What are the other reasons? What is your understanding of the word skank? Would you decide to tell the truth if you never got arrested? How can you say that you don`t have memory issues when you can`t remember how you stabbed him so many times and slashed his throat?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Those were just a few of the jury`s 200 questions for Jodi, and many of them were representative of what we all were thinking. We thought they were pretty good questions, so we`re going to give the jury a report card today. I`m back with my co-host, Jenny Hut. The questions have been described as smart, pointed, and interestingly, mocking. Marcia, what is your take?
CLARK: Oh, I think they run the gamut from ridiculous -- from the absurd to the sublime to the ridiculous and back and forth again. The question about, for example, the K-Y jelly, one of the other reasons you brought -- OK, who cares?
CLARK: Seriously, come on, guys, she cooked with it, you know?
CLARK: I mean, that`s ridiculous, but then, there were very good questions asked, you know what I mean, about the memory, those kinds of questions. And some of the sexual questions were obviously very pertinent, because to the extent, she`s lying about their sexual problems and his abusiveness, she`s lying about self-defense as well.
It goes right to the core of the defense. So, I would say that there are it`s a big range, but there were probably more good questions than bad.
PINSKY: All right. Well, hold on. Hold on, Marcia, I`m going to get your grade in just a minute. We`ve got a juror question that Janine loves. We actually have a piece of tape on this. Watch this, guys.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were you mad at Travis while you were stabbing him
JODI ARIAS, ACCUSED OF KILLING HER EX-BOYFRIEND: I don`t recall fear being a prominent -- I mean, sorry, I don`t recall anger being a prominent --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection.
ARIAS: I don`t remember being angry that day. I remember being terrified.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Janine, to me, that was one of the most telling moments in this entire trial. Do you agree with me?
DRIVER: I do. Sometimes, Dr. Drew, you have to kiss a lot of frogs to get to a prince. So, while some of the questions weren`t great, when you meet that prince, you`re pretty damn happy. And I was happy with this question, because why Jodi Arias gave a Freudian (ph) slip. I was not feeling fear while I was stabbing him.
It`s a Freudian slip. John Allen Muhammad, the D.C. sniper, he represented himself in court, and he said to the jury, by the grace of God you find me guilty, I mean, innocent. Freudian slips, in my world --
PINSKY: And let`s be clear. Mark, she didn`t say, I don`t know what you`re talking about, I was in the fog. She says, not only, well, it was fear -- it was horrible -- I mean, I was in the fog. I`m sorry. I was in the fog.
EIGLARSH: That`s correct. One of many good questions. They asked a lot, and I agree with my dear friend, Marcia Clark who, by the way, did say K-Y jelly on national television.
PINSKY: Thank you.
PINSKY: Back when I was watching the O.J. trial back in the day, I always dreamed of this moment. So, here we go.
CLARK: Me, too.
EIGLARSH: Maybe it would have fit if he had a little K-Y.
DRIVER: Hey, Dr. Drew, I predicted this moment back in the O.J. days.
PINSKY: You did?
EIGLARSH: All right. Enough.
CLARK: Don`t go there. Don`t go there.
EIGLARSH: Here`s what one thing I did take exception to if we can get serious for a moment. Some of their questions didn`t say, well, when you claim Travis beat you or when you claim Travis did something, they would (ph) say, when Travis did such and such. When Travis hit you, why didn`t you -- and I wanted to say, well, wait a second.
Either that juror didn`t properly write out the question because maybe they`re skeptical about it but wrote it like that, or, is skeptical but then now other jurors think that maybe another juror believes that Travis did do that. These are merely claims by her, they`re not fact.
HUTT: I`ve just been entertained by the questions. And frankly, this has been such a serious case and we`ve been watching Jodi Arias go on and on and on that I`ve appreciated just basically the fun and the sensationalism of these questions.
PINSKY: Yes, it`s been good. They`ve been of the questions on many of our minds. I`m so -- however, my self caught up with the idea that Janine predicted Marcia`s K-Y comments a few years later on my show here.
PINSKY: So, let`s give the grades, guys. Mark, what is your grade for the jury?
EIGLARSH: I`m giving them a "B."
PINSKY: A "B."
EIGLARSH: Solid B. They`ve been paying attention, they`ve been listening, they`ve been asking good questions. Some very irrelevant, but very good questions.
PINSKY: I want to remind my panel that mark is very deeply steeped in grade deflation. Marcia, your grade.
CLARK: I do. I was going to give him actually B+, but then, I heard the K-Y question. That one -- that was a curve wrecker, if you will. It was curve wrecker. So, I downgraded to a "B."
PINSKY: Originally, you told my producer A- because the little animation said A-. Janine, what do you got?
DRIVER: I give them an A+.
PINSKY: A+. Very nice.
DRIVER: Yes. I do, because that question, were you experiencing anger and her slipping out, I experienced no fear at that moment, I mean anger. That is the diamond in the rough. A+.
PINSKY: And Jenny, you`re an attorney as well.
HUTT: Yes. Although for a different reason from Janine, I gave an A.
PINSKY: A. Excellent. So, there`s quite a --quite a variance here, but at least, the jury is doing much better than the attorneys, at least, in your guys` eyes.
PINSKY: Their report card looks a lot cleaner. Thank you, guys.
Next up, my jurors are back, and one of them is going to help us analyze whether or not Jodi is a bad Mormon. Be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does the book of Mormon go into detail regarding the vow of chastity?
ARIAS: It just talks about -- it uses verbiage such as whoredoms, things like that. Being unclean, and that`s all in reference to sexual sin.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did you feel so uncomfortable about anal sex with Travis when you had previously tried it?
ARIAS: In my previous relationships, it was only something we tried. And with Travis, that was his preference.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I am back with my co-host, Jenny Hut. It is time for Drew`s jury. Joining us, and by the way, Jenny, you`ll be happy to know we`re going to finally get to this question you`ve been asking since last night.
HUTT: About anal sex, thank goodness.
PINSKY: About anal sex and Mormon exceptionalism.
PINSKY: Joining us, my jurors Katie wick and Stacey Fairrington. And Katie, I`m going to jump over to you tonight and go right to Stacey because Stacey is a Mormon, a Mormon faith. And, help us understand, is there anything at all about what Jodi is saying that even a small population of Mormons would buy into?
STACEY FAIRRINGTON, DR. DREW "JUROR": Absolutely not. I mean, she tends -- she has a lot of knowledge about -- you know, she talks about the book of Mormon, and she writes about different scriptures in her book, but as far as -- the problem that I`m kind of having with her testimony is when she talks about Travis and his -- what he taught her were the right ways, or when she had questions she would ask Travis.
I just don`t buy into it. I mean, when you`re about to be baptized into the Mormon Church, you do -- basically baptism is a washing away of your sins. And so, before baptism, you do go meet with your bishop and her bishop would have talked to her about these things before so that when she got baptized, you know, she could kind of start new and fresh.
And the fact that I think they keep trying to use this whole, he was this big leader in the church and kind of controlled her through that, I mean, at the end of the day, Mormons are just natural, normal human beings like everybody else. And we all have our different things we struggle with, and you know, a big thing that --
PINSKY: But Stacey, they don`t get mired in technicalities about whether it`s vaginal sex or anal sex. It`s about chastity, right, not about what plane is being violated. Just saying.
FAIRRINGTON: Exactly. I mean, it is. It is. It`s staying true and pure until you`re married and saving all those physical aspects no matter what type with your husband, with your spouse. And one form or the other, it doesn`t matter. It really doesn`t.
PINSKY: There you go. That`s the answer I was looking for there, Stacey. Katie, when the jury -- I want to know what their reaction was in the room when the question was asked of Jodi, after all the lies you`ve told, why should we believe you now? That was her own defense attorney asked that.
How did the jurors respond to that? And, I heard the jury came to life a little bit when the prosecution stepped back in.
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": Yes, it was incredible. We went out for a little bite to eat after, and we spoke with Travis` family, and everybody just -- we were almost shaking because of the excitement that finally Jodi has been caught in an outright lie not only on "48 Hours" and the other network she went on, but she`s lying to the jurors, straight to the jury.
And the morning started, Dr. Drew, with the jury asking Jodi, as you said, why should we believe you? Juan Martinez ended the day with proving to that jury, you can`t. You can`t trust her. She is lying then, she is lying now, and it`s going to be a long five days for Jodi, because there is more coming, hopefully, next week.
It was -- and you can hear -- we were discussing this. You could hear when Nurmi -- because we thought Nurmi was going to drag this on, drag this on, but he didn`t. He stopped, and we thought, whoa, is Martinez going to go? And as I was watching Martinez get all his papers together and I thought, he`s going to go for it.
And you could hear it, Dr. Drew, when the judge said, Mr. Martinez? People went yes, and ooh and ah and yay. It was audible. The jury sat up. They started paying attention.
WICK: You could tell.
FAIRRINGTON: You could feel it.
FAIRRINGTON: You could feel it.
PINSKY: Let`s get a question from Mike in Washington -- Mike.
MIKE, WASHINGTON: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Go right ahead. You`re on.
MIKE: I just to want comment on the jury again.
PINSKY: Yes, go ahead.
MIKE: And how great of a job they`re doing. It`s like Christmas in the spring, I swear.
MIKE: They`re asking questions and kind of representing everybody -- everyone at home.
PINSKY: Is there a little bit of a community developing in the courtroom as well because the kinds of questions the jury is asking? Are those, the people in the room, wish they could ask?
WICK: Yes, because we sit around, right, and we discussed -- we say - - we actually go through our notes. We took a picture of all of our notes tonight and we actually do discuss that and we say, oh, my gosh, I hope that the jury asks this. I hope the jury is making this connection. and when they do, we say yey. I mean, it`s just incredible day.
FAIRRINGTON: I`ve been so proud of them. I mean, I --
PINSKY: I`m sorry, Stacey, to step on you. I`ve got to take a break. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for your insights. I haven`t quite answered your question.
HUTT: No, you haven`t.
PINSKY: I will get to you after the break and some thoughts about, guess who, tan mom.
PINSKY: Jenny, I want to thank you for being my co-host this week. To answer your question now, we put to bed this issue about being something about Mormonism. Young males these days are developing that predilection because of pornography, in my opinion.
PINSKY: There are a lot of sort of predisposition, certain critical ages that we know that this guy saw pornography and had a habit with that, perhaps. Also, guys are kind of aggressive, sort of an aggressive outlet for them, aggression, not necessarily misogynistic, but kind of aggressive.
PINSKY: Beyond that, it has become far more common than you might imagine these days in young males. So.
HUTT: All right.
PINSKY: Thank you for being here, my dear. A reminder that tan mom is with us on Monday. That`s right. Good old tan mom. She doesn`t look so tan anymore. There she is then. She got in a lot of trouble for taking her little daughter to the tanning salon, but she`s off the hook legally. She`s going to tell is about that.
And she talks to me about whether she intends to tan again and how that would go down if she ever did. She looks great. The interview was, at times, emotional, at times frustrating, at times, funny. You don`t want to miss it.
Also, we have an interview with another Travis Alexander`s roommates. He says Jodi and Travis went down what he called a bad path (ph). I`m going to find out what that was all about, what he means by that.
Thank you for watching. Thanks again with my co-host, Jenny. Thank you to my guests and calls, thanks you as well. See you next time. Reminder, "Nancy Grace" begins right now.