Dr. Drew transcript: March 20, 2013, Jodi Arias trial videos
|Travis Alexander and Jodi Arias (MySpace)|
What`s Jodi Doing?
Aired March 20, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, which reality contestant is Jodi Arias today? "Survivor"?
JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: It might change my memory.
PINSKY: "The Bachelorette."
ARIAS: You should have at least done your makeup, Jodi. Gosh.
PINSKY: Or "The Biggest Loser"?
ARIAS: How many times was Travis stabbed?
PINSKY: Maybe she can star in her own reality show, "The Manipulator".
Plus, surfing Jodi. The man in this picture calls her a cancer, says she invited herself on their vacation.
And pill-popping Jodi. Did she really do this in court?
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening.
We have brand-new video of Jodi Arias we`ll show you in just a second.
My co-host this week, former defense attorney and prosecutor, Mary Fulginiti.
All right, Mary. We`re going to look at some video here. This is video of her during the interrogation, and the more we see of this tape, which is apparently about four hours long, the more bizarre she looks.
MARY FULGINITI, CO-HOST: Yes, I have to tell you, some of the things she does while she`s there are just so unbelievably odd.
PINSKY: All right. We`re going to try to get into that and understand that. But this morning was all about rehabilitating Jodi`s amnesia guy.
We notice some bizarre moments and wonder if the defense might just not be watching HLN`s trial coverage. Take a look at what I`m talking about.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is there ever a blurring of the lines between evaluator and therapist?
RICHARD SAMUELS, PH.D., DEFENSE EXPERT WITNESS: If you are taking the role of an evaluator, you should not be the therapist at the same time, or sometimes depending on the ways the rules are written in a particular state, never.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you aware of any other nonsexual assault by a stranger to Miss Arias?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what is that?
SAMUELS: Age 13, she was accosted, a knife was held to her throat, and this was in some information reported by her brother.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was it important to you?
SAMUELS: It would have been important if I was doing therapy. But it wasn`t important for the purposes of this test.
I have grown to become very comfortable using the MCMI as my first test and if I am still confused when I get the results of that test back, I then might administer the MMPI. Now, there also are a whole range of other psychological tests that are available.
You can then examine the results of those tests to see if they help support or refute your hypothesis.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You talked about how much you charge an hour. Is it $250?
SAMUELS: Well, at the time that I signed on for this case, it was, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And with regard to Miss Arias` validity scales on the MCMI, how did those come out?
SAMUELS: They came out within the norms?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, no concerns, then?
SAMUELS: I had no concerns.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did she talk to you about the fact that Travis tied her up with a rope?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And do you remember her discussing with you how many times that happened?
SAMUELS: It happened twice.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: During that conversation, did you talk to her about a time that she felt uncomfortable when Travis had oral sex with her?
SAMUELS: Yes. He came into her room during the night, unclothed her, and then performed oral sex. She was uncomfortable, not necessarily with the oral sex, but with the fact that it was occurring before she felt that it was appropriate in this relationship.
ARIAS: You fell asleep on your chair next to your bed, and you just woke me up by pulling my pants off and totally licking my (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
TRAVIS ALEXANDER, VICTIM: Yes.
ARIAS: I was so embarrassed, because I had just got my Brazilian on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And when a person is experiencing acute stress, is their short-term memory in tact at that point?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, beyond the scope.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Question 14?
SAMUELS: By the way, it`s not right to characterize it as questions. They`re really statements.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, statements. OK, thank you. Is that one of the reasons why attorneys shouldn`t get raw data, because we don`t understand it?
SAMUELS: That`s right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As long as you gave her the tests within three years of 2008, would this answer have been the same?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, speculation as to what the defendant would have answered.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Judge, it`s a mathematical question.
JUDGE: Yes, approach, please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the times that you`ve met with her, did she report having problems sleeping?
SAMUELS: Yes, she did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And was that something different for her?
SAMUELS: She was a sound sleeper prior to the incident. And then since coming to jail, which is after the incident, she reported having difficulty sleeping.
Joining us, attorney Mike Eiglarsh from speaktomark.com, attorney Lauren Lake, forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt, and woman we call the human lie detector, Janine Driver, the author of "You Can`t Lie to Me".
All right, guys. I want you to take a look at this video of Jodi in the police interrogation room. Let`s take a look at this. Come on now, show it so we can all look.
OK. So, she -- Mary, during police interrogation, people know they`re being filmed, do they not?
FULGINITI: Usually they know that there`s somebody behind that little window that`s watching them, and potentially filming them, but here you would think that either she knows and she`s calculating and trying to look, you know, like she`s crazy or she just doesn`t know at all and has no concept.
PINSKY: And she`s still in handcuffs here during this particular video?
FULGINITI: I can`t tell there if she is. Yes, I guess she is still in handcuffs there. And look at her, she`s doing handstands, putting her head down. I`ve seen people get nervous, seen people cry, I`ve even seen people vomit, but never seen anyone do what Jodi Arias does.
PINSKY: Lauren, what about you?
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: She is really, really acting like she doesn`t have any good sense, Dr. Drew. I mean, if you look at this young girl, if understanding the severity, the gravity of what she`s facing, these are the moves she`s doing? This is the way she`s sitting? Flinging her hair, it doesn`t make sense.
But truthfully, when you look at that, you have to say yourself, hmm is troubled, is this girl off? It almost adds to some of the evidence that`s being presented that maybe something isn`t wrapped too tight in this chick.
PINSKY: Janine, what do you think?
JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: You know, once again, typical Jodi Arias. This is more indicative of someone who is guilty versus someone who is innocent. An innocent person tends to get nervous, because they`re worried about being believed and you don`t seem this kind of relaxed behavior.
When we move our bodies, we move our minds. We often see people, like guilty people do this. But, hey, when I`m confused about an analysis, what I do, is I ask my 7-year-old son, Angus, what he thinks. And if Angus doesn`t agree with what I think, and I`m more confused, I ask my two Jack Russell puppies, T-Rex and Elsie, what they think and then I come on your show.
Hopefully, this analysis tonight is going to be what you`re looking for.
PINSKY: Fair enough.
Mark, is this more G in lasagna?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: You know what, Drew? I don`t know, I don`t care. And you know what speaks volumes? Not this, but those crime scene photos and her admission that she did it, coupled with her unbelievable story, that makes it clear for me. That`s all I need.
PINSKY: Cheryl, finally, yourself?
CHERYL ARUTT, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: When Mark said those are the most important facts of the case. When I look at Jodi`s behavior in this tape, what strikes me is how completely relaxed she looks and how she`s focused on how her hair looks and how her face looks and concerned about who she`s going to manipulate next and what the next opportunity is going to be.
And that`s something that speaks to her guilt and it certainly speaks to what her priorities are after she`s booked.
PINSKY: Guilt in the sense that she had committed the crime, not guilt in the sense that she get felt bad about this.
ARUTT: Good distinction, right.
PINSKY: Now, look, there`s some footage -- I wonder if you guys can pull that up alongside of me as well, of Jodi doing something that looks like popping a pill in court. Is that video ready? It`s very interesting, and y`all are going to get a dose of the "Behavior Bureau".
But let`s first look at this video. Come on now, bring it up.
All right. Later, I want to remind you also -- there it is. OK, we`re going to go on a vacation that Jodi arias actually invited herself to. My guests say this is, in fact, what happened more than once.
Plus, more of my exclusive Travis, there`s the pill. That`s interesting. What kind of pill is she taking?
FULGINITI: What`s she doing taking pills in the courtroom?
PINSKY: I don`t understand. We`ll be back to discuss that and behavior bureau after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMUELS: I`ve had patients that I`ve worked with for a year that haven`t told me the whole story.
ARIAS: It might change my memory.
You should have at least done your makeup, Jodi. Gosh.
Fall on your knees --
It`s not fair! How many times was Travis stabbed?
O night divine, o night, o night divine --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Oh, my producers have an interesting sense of humor here.
All right. Time for the "Behavior Bureau".
Back with my co-host, Mary Fulginiti.
Mary, we were watching that interrogation tape where she`s behaving so bizarrely and we heard that she actually, during that interrogation, asked to see crime scene photos, which is bizarre, given that she was the murder.
FULGINITI: And given how heinous those photos actually are.
You know, the only thing I can think of is that because this is the stage of her lies, where she was denying it, that maybe she thought if she asked to see them, that she would be convincing them that she had nothing, really, to do with it, and that she had no idea what had happened to Travis. That`s the only thing I can think of, because I think, wanting to see those photos after knowing what she did to him, it`s unfathomable.
PINSKY: And, again, any of you out there, I encourage you to go look at those photos, wherever you can find them, because they tell such a horrific tale.
Joining me now: forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt, psychologist Wendy Walsh, and our human lie detector, Janine Driver.
But first, that pill popping, ladies. Mary, in court, you don`t pop a pill, even if it`s a Tylenol, do you? And by the way, prisoners aren`t allowed to keep medication on them, are they?
FULGINITI: No, not at all, in fact. And you have to realize, when you have a defendant there, you don`t want them doing anything that the jury could interpret in any way that could be possibly negative.
PINSKY: Look how they analyze it.
FULGINITI: No, that`s exactly right. They`re watching her every move, we`re watching her every move. We`re speculating, they`re speculating. You don`t want any of that.
PINSKY: All right. I want to go back to Jodi`s story. I want to ask my "Behavior Bureau", what story do you guy think Jodi believes. Is she in massive denial? Does she really believe he had it coming and she was justified, or is she just living in some parallel universe where whatever suits Jodi is just what needs to be the case?
Janine, what do you think?
DRIVER: I`m curious, what do you think? You`re the doctor. I am --
PINSKY: What did the dogs say?
DRIVER: What do the dogs, T-Rex and Elsie.
Listen, this is what I think. I think she`s delusional. I don`t know what story is real. I believe it`s premeditated. I don`t think the real story has come out of Jodi Arias` mouth.
I`ll tell you about the pill-popping. I`m surprised about the pills - - this is why: 12 months ago, in June of last year, a man by the name of Michael Maran (ph), he found out -- he was found guilty of arson. He burned his $3.5 million house in Phoenix, Arizona, he leaned down when he got the conviction. And guess what happened, he put a pill, arsenic in his mouth, and he died in the courtroom.
I`m surprised the judge is allowing this. I challenge the judge on this behavior.
PINSKY: Right. They shouldn`t --
DRIVER: Allowing this behavior.
PINSKY: Right. How about allowing the prisoner to have a medication?
FULGINITI: I think this judge has allowed a lot of things and this is actually to the extreme.
PINSKY: Cheryl, I let you comment now. Cheryl, what do you think? What is Jodi`s story, what does she believe, what`s denial, and what`s the world according to Jodi?
ARUTT: Dr. Drew, I think it`s about manipulation and who she can pull in. And I`m still recovering from being stunned by hearing in the last clip that you showed of Dr. Samuel saying that the first test he gives is the MCMI, and then follows up with the MMPI.
Now, viewers probably don`t know this, but the MCMI is basically, somebody has a personality disorder, what flavor is it? It`s actually impossible to come out normal on the MCMI. He just said she came up normal.
You would never give that first. I`m just -- I`m stunned.
PINSKY: Wendy, you agree that? Cheryl, do you want to finish?
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: In fact, it was designed specifically for psychiatric populations. It was never designed for the general public at all. And going back to the pill, for one thing, I do have to say one thing. If I was Jodi, and I`d been in that courtroom as long as I`d been, I would have a whopping headache by now. So who knows who she manipulated to get an Advil or a Tylenol?
PINSKY: That`s interesting. Maybe the woman she was whispering to, whispering, I need some medication, I`ve got a headache.
FULGINITI: Or it could have been a Tic Tac, guys. It could have been a Tic Toc, we don`t know.
DRIVER: No, I don`t think -- I don`t think it`s a Tic Tac, an Advil, or an aspirin. I think it`s a birth control pill.
PINSKY: Janine, with the zingers.
All right. Thank you to my panel.
Next up, a couple of guys who say that Jodi was off, as we`ve heard over and over again, and one who says that she was a cancer in Travis` life.
And later on, which knives -- we`re going to see the knives -- might have been used to kill Travis. The crime scene shows a bunch of knives, maybe not just the once they were using to cut the ropes off their kinky behavior. Look at that.
Back with more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: The evidence is very compelling, but none of it proves that I committed a murder.
MARIE HALL, TRAVIS ALEXANDER`S FRIEND: He had dated someone earlier that year. She had slashed her tires.
She had followed us on the first date that we went on. She had broken into his e-mail accounts, his bank accounts. She would sneak into his house through the doggy door and sleep on his couch at night without him knowing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He had told us that he wasn`t dating her and she thought that she was following him around and that`s when she had been caught snooping around and peeking into his windows at his house.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome back. I`m here with my co-host, Mary Fulginiti.
And, Mary, during the break, we were talking about Jodi. People still have a giant question mark over their head about who is she, how could she lie like this, how could she do something like this?
FULGINITI: Right. And her behavior -- I mean, what do you make it all? You see her doing handstands, you see her in the courtroom, and then you see what she actually did in this case --
FULGINITI: -- whether or not it was justifiable or not. What do you think?
PINSKY: Well, she`s clearly not normal. She`s somebody with real pathology. We`ve been speculating that what we`re seeing here is somebody -- a stalker, probably love addicted, with a severe emptiness at her core, no sense of herself at the core.
And she became obsessed and addicted to this guy, used him, and actually committed interpersonal terrorist on him -- used power and control the way to try to suck this guy in. To complete her, she felt so incomplete, inadequate, empty.
And everyone we meet that knew her gives us the same sort of story about how, sort of, something was not right. And these guys I`m about to talk to are no exception.
Our guests are Anthony Vaeena and Zion Lovingier. They`ve known Jodi. They claim that on two occasions Jodi actually invited herself on to their surfing trips and when she was around them, she was not normal.
Anthony, first of all, how did she end up with you? And, secondly, your impression?
ANTHONY VAEENA, WENT SURFING WITH JODI: Well, initially we were supposed to go to a surf spot in southern San Diego, and she essentially invited herself to come on to the trip, so trying to be a little sneaky, we said, we`ll go ahead and go to Mexico. There`s no way she would go down there with three grown men. And essentially she said, that`s OK, I`ll go ahead and go.
And -- so on the way down to the trip, she`s just very, very strange person. I did get to talk to her while we were down at this spot in Mexico and she was just very, very -- you look into her eyes, and you can tell she was essentially looking into your soul, in a negative way, and almost wanting to attack you.
PINSKY: Now, one thing she sort of presents herself as almost as schoolmarm on the witness stand. Was she sexually provocative? Is that what sucked Travis in?
VAEENA: You know, she definitely was not steering from it. When I came in from one of the sessions in the water, we were a good ways away, and she definitely scooted right up next to me, not afraid to converse inches away from me. So --
PINSKY: Zion, did you experience hear the same way? And did Travis know that Jodi went on these trips with you guys?
ZION LOVINGIER, KNEW TRAVIS, SURFED WITH JODI: You know, I can`t remember exactly. It was not uncommon for Jodi to show interest or to be - - she was not shy at all. So it was not uncommon for her to show interest in other men, in an attempt to make Travis jealous. And Travis really didn`t care. And it wouldn`t surprise me if Jodi had tried to throw that in his face later.
FULGINITI: But did you guys ever --
LOVINGIER: -- went to Mexico.
FULGINITI: But, guys, did you ever think that she would be or could be his fatal attraction? I mean, it`s one thing when a women flirts and uses her sexuality to sort of curry favor --
PINSKY: Mary does that all the time.
FULGINITI: No, I -- but, really, did you ever think she could be this, she could be, literally, his fatal attraction?
LOVINGIER: No, I mean, if you`re asking me if I ever thought she`d murder him, absolutely not.
But I do want to make one thing absolutely certain, is that, you know, a lot of people have said that Travis tried to, you know, shut this up and tried to hide what was going on with Jodi. And although Travis, he did not broadcast what was going on with Jodi, but he wasn`t secretive about it. He told people who were very close to him, he was working with counselors in his church to really let go of Jodi and to do what was healthy. He knew that he was behaving inconsistent with his values.
PINSKY: Oh, he was --
LOVINGIER: So he wasn`t trying to shut this up and trying to be a secret --
PINSKY: Well, Zion, let me ask you, was he explicit with you about what was going on? Were these tapes a surprise to you? Or was this what he told you was happening?
LOVINGIER: No, I mean, I new Travis very well, but he did not divulge any of this to me. So, yes, I was slightly surprised. But there were others that absolutely knew exactly what was going on.
And he was working through this. He wanted to be rid of Jodi. He knew that, you know, that having her in his life, that she was becoming continually more aggressive, particularly as he started to pull away.
FULGINITI: You guys, when you got the call, though --
LOVINGIER: Yes, he never divulged anything to me.
FULGINITI: You guys, after he was killed and you got the call and you were told that this is the woman who`s accused of killing him, were either of you surprised?
LOVINGIER: You know, Anthony, you know, he didn`t know Travis very well, but you know, obviously he had that experience, when we were on that trip to Mexico. But, was I surprised that Travis was killed?
PINSKY: Were you surprised?
FULGINITI: But by Jodi, guys? Were you surprised --
LOVINGIER: Or was I surprised that she did it?
LOVINGIER: I mean, yes, I was surprised -- yes, when I heard that he was murdered, I was -- I thought that she could have been the culprit.
LOVINGIER: When I heard how gruesome it was, I was surprised. Because how could anybody do that, that even has somewhat, you know -- it would have to be a monster.
PINSKY: Got it. Got it.
Anthony, how about you? You kind of thought that she was looking at your soul. Did she think she was such a monster?
VAEENA: Well, I didn`t put it past her until I started talking to her, and once I found out she actually did, I called Zion and said, "Well, Zion, that could have been one of us on our trip down to Mexico." So --
PINSKY: Anthony, I think a lot of people, a lot of men are sort of scrolling through people they know and wondering, do I know somebody, being with somebody, how could that have happened.
Thank you, guys.
Very interesting. Next up, Dr. Bill Lloyd is back. He`s back with his knife and the question -- there he is and that`s the knife --
FULGINITI: His knife!
PINSKY: Yes, that knife very much what Jodi Arias used. I`ll talk to him about that.
And later, do you think Jodi is worried about her own defense witness and how he behaved on the stand? Is this making her nervous, how he`s been falling apart?
Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There will be a great deal of blood that will come from an injury in a living person. A deceased person will ooze some blood, but not a great deal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So in this one right here, it is your opinion that Mr. Alexander was alive when this was inflicted?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As we compare those to the injuries to the right thumb, they seem to be a little bit deeper. Is that true or not?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And how deep are these in comparison to the ones that we saw in the thumb?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The one on the thumb is fairly superficial. It just clips off part of the nail. This is actually going into the soft tissue and the muscle beneath the hand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host this week, Mary Fulginiti. And we are asking how did Jodi do it. Two experts who`ve seen their share of crime scenes and bodies. Dr. Bill Lloyd, a pathologist and surgeon, who says it happened in a very specific way, in contradistinction to our crime scene specialist, Randolph Beasley, who knew Jodi and Travis and says it happened another way, and of course, Mark Eiglarsh is back with us as well.
PINSKY: Dr. Lloyd, I`ll let start with your theory. Tell us what happened.
DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST: Well, we think the most serious wound that Travis sustained was the stab to the chest, Drew. It happened right here on the right side of the sternum, the breast plate. The knife had to go in at least an inch and a half and that`s confirmed in the autopsy report. But remember, inch and a half. The size of the wound itself matches the width of this blade, 1 1/2 inches.
It had to be a big boy. And when it entered the chest, it severed what we called the vena cava, a very large vessel that feeds blood to the heart. You can`t survive for more than a few seconds after having your vena cava lacerated. All the other injuries occurred to him after having his vena cava lacerated.
PINSKY: And Dr. Lloyd, the superior vena cava, the one above the heart or the one coming in from below?
LLOYD: It`s the superior, and we know it because the injury, as measured at the autopsy, was between the third and the fourth ribs, right next to where the sternum attaches to the ribs. It had to be a really strong, real sharp knife, Drew. And the wound itself indicated that the injury was caused by a weapon that was sharp on one edge, and blunt on the other. And remember, 1 1/2 inches across and up to three inches going into the chest itself.
PINSKY: Now, we`re looking at a whole array of knives alongside of you, Dr. Lloyd, which were found at the crime scene. I`ve not heard anybody say anything. I`ll go to Randolph. I`ll go to your theory now. I`ve not heard anybody say anything like a knife from that particular set was missing that fits the profile that Dr. Lloyd is suggesting. Has anybody seen any knives missing?
RANDOLPH BEASLEY, CRIME SCENE FORENSIC EXPERT: Yes. Not that I know of, Dr. Drew. The whole thing with the knife, I agree with the doctor, as far as that injury to the chest. I just think it was the second injury inflicted on Travis. I think the first injury was, he was shot in the face. That makes most sense to take a gun to this premeditated attack.
And then once he was shot in the face, she got a knife, she came back, then she stabbed him in the chest. He goes down in the hallway and she finishes him off. So, we`re close, but it doesn`t make any sense to me, whatsoever, that he would actually, she would bring a knife, attempting to attack a larger individual, unless, he was asleep.
MARY FULGINITI, ATTORNEY: You know, that`s what we were talking about at the break. Dr. Lloyd, how on Earth -- I mean, she`s a young woman here and I have to think going with a knife first is so risky, because if she doesn`t him in the exact right spot, he can overpower him in a nanosecond.
PINSKY: So, I guess, if it was an impulsive act like she grabbed the knife in a kitchen in a rage. Dr. Lloyd, is that what you`re suggesting?
LLOYD: We discussed this before. We call this the physics of murder. She had all of the advantages. He just was enjoying sex and taking a nice, hot shower. He had no reason to be suspicious of anything. She had all the emotional leverage. She had the weapon. She attacked him from behind and stabbed him in the back. He turned around.
Remember, the defensive hand position and the cuts to the hands. He wasn`t attacking her, he was defending himself from her attack, and then the lunge with the big boy into the right side of the chest, severing the vena cava. He leaves the bathroom, blood all over the house, then comes the slash to the neck after he collapsed, drags him back to the bathroom, and shoots him in the head.
We had the discussion a few days ago and I left out an important point. Had he been shot in the head first, there would have been massive bleeding, bleeding caused not by brain tissue, but by the meninges, the that surrounds it. These are richly vascularized tissues and the amount of blood would have been phenomenal. No blood was found at autopsy, because he had no blood left in his body.
PINSKY: Mark, I`m going to let you ring in on this.
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Well, I agree with Dr. big Knife.
EIGLARSH: And his testimony, his testimony is supported by the medical examiner, who I carefully listened to, Dr. Kevin Horne (ph). But here`s the good news, legally. It`s almost impossible to always know precisely how a murder takes place. The case law, the statute does not require the prosecutor to prove exactly what took place. Just that she killed him.
Now, she`s launched a defense. It would be great to know exactly how it happened, to disprove her theory, and to show her as a liar, but there`s plenty of other ways to show that she`s lying, and thus, her theory will fail.
PINSKY: And Randolph, I like your theory, the face. It hits you in the face, because I don`t understand what was going on at the sink, unless, I think of him being shot in the face, standing over the sink, spitting out blood, and then she comes around behind and stabs him and then the big knife from Dr. Lloyd. We`ll never know. That`s the reality, because the fog has settled on --
EIGLARSH: And we don`t have to.
PINSKY: Conveniently. And we don`t have to. Thank goodness.
BEASLEY: Yes. And that is the good thing. Dr. Drew, if you look at the photo of Travis in the shower, sitting down in the shower, and then 45 seconds later is the blurry photo of the ceiling. So what happens is, with him sitting in the shower, the trajectory of the bullet through his head, through his face, rather, not his brain, but his face, that`s consistent.
So, in crime scene reconstruction, yes, we don`t know for sure, but it just makes more sense. I think that it should be addressed with the jury so that for those that may doubt, it will cover that.
FULGINITI: Yes. And I disagree with you guys a little bit, because I have to tell you, in a self-defense case, where hers is all about, you know, defending herself against him and doing it with a gun, I think the prosecutor, to the best of their ability, needs to present the clearest picture of how this happened in the most compelling way. And the jury wants to know. No matter what you say, Mark, the jury always wants to know.
PINSKY: So, it won`t be so much --
EIGLARSH: I agree, but it`s not necessary for a conviction. I agree, but they don`t have to.
PINSKY: Got to go. We`re going to get our grade books out now. We`re rating the prosecution, so far. Will they go to the head of the class?
And later, got my jurors back. Should Jodi be happy they`re not on the actual jury? We`ll be back after this.
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN HOST: Coming up at the top of the hour on "HLN After Dark," our bold accusation, Jodi shows no remorse. This live in- studio jury will render a verdict by the end of the program, guilty or not guilty. And you at home, our virtual jury, on HLNTV.com and #jodijury will render a verdict. Our bold accusation tonight, Jodi shows no remorse. Top of the hour.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What factors influence you`re having a memory problem?
JODI ARIAS, ACCUSED OF KILLING HER EX-BOYFRIEND: Usually, when men like you are screaming at me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And if he was suicidal, you`re not the treating physician, are you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not treating her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, if she was suicidal, it was somebody else`s responsibility to take care of it, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you reading from, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And sir, I ask the questions. You don`t know that, do you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I don`t. I`m speculating.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. Made it up right now. Speculating.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, clinical judgment, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you crying when you were stabbing him? You remember that? That does not fit the diagnosis for PTSD or posttraumatic stress disorder, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t have anything else.
PINSKY: Time for the trial report card. Back with my co-host, Mary Fulginiti. And tonight, we are grading the prosecution. Handing out the grades tonight, defense attorney, Lauren Lake, criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh, our human lie detector, Janine Driver, and one of the members of our jury, she is what we might call a defense attorney in training, Kjersten Pinc.
Now, I want to know, is Juan Martinez doing a good job or a bad job with the defense`s expert witness. Hold your grades until I ask for them, but I`ll give you each a comment on how you think -- an opportunity to comment on how you think the prosecution did with this witness. Kjersten, you`re up first.
KJERSTEN PINC, IN ARIAS COURTROOM: I actually think he did a good job at discrediting the witness, and he pointed out all his inconsistencies, so that was a thumbs up for me.
PINSKY: By the way, I want to remind everyone, Kjerstin is a young high school student there in Arizona who`s doing a paper on domestic violence. She is planning to be a defense attorney like yourself. I`ll put you in touch with Mary there, Kjerstin, when this is all over with. And she`s been communicating with the defense team over there --
FULGINITI: Oh, you`ve been talking to them or e-mailing?
PINSKY: The letters back and forth. Right, Kjerstin?
PINC: Right, e-mails.
PINSKY: OK. Mark, now, you.
EIGLARSH: One thing that was extremely effective that I give him credit for was making it very clear that in spite of her lying to him, which should have derailed his posttraumatic stress conclusion, he just kept moving on and kept moving on. And he was determined, it appeared, according to this cross-examination, to give the defense the help they needed with the diagnosis they wanted, And Juan Martinez will be able to argue in closing, his reasons, $250 an hour.
PINSKY: And mark, you have been very critical of Mr. Martinez. Are you still as critical or do you think he`s coming around?
EIGLARSH: Well, I was trying to be positive.
PINSKY: OK. All right, fair enough. That`s what I thought I was hearing. I just wanted to be sure you weren`t going all the way positive.
EIGLARSH: Did you say how well I was being positive?
FULGINITI: That was a really good effort. Good effort.
EIGLARSH: -- Twitter and Facebook. You saw that, right?
PINSKY: Well, for me, Mark, the fog set in. I`m just saying. So, Janine, what do you got?
JANIE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: These are called illustrators. Illustrators are when a hand gesture matches your message. Dangerously, powerful, weak, for Juan Martinez. Why? He says, I ask the questions. He puts the hand out right here. This is oh, no, you didn`t. This is like talk to the hand.
He puts him on notice. Then, when he`s talking, Juan Martinez has one hand on his hip. When we put one hand on our hip, Dr. Drew, it is seen as attitude. So, once again, oh, no, you didn`t. I loved him this week.
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: Does he go and do the snap next? I mean, you know, I like his pit bull style. You know, I`m entertained by it. I`ve said that before. But I do feel like he barked up the wrong tree for too long on the $9 book and trying to make the jury somehow infer that Samuels liked Jodi Arias in some way.
What is this, like he was attracted to her? I got bored with that, but I do think he did a decent job at discrediting him, at showing him to be very disorganized and unprepared. That I do give Martinez credit for. He did a good job at that.
PINSKY: And Mary, why did the prosecutor bring up this whole issue, you and I have discussed off the air which is, why spend all this time with this one guy and this one issue. For my viewers to know (ph), this guy has only done one thing. He`s shown us a possible explanation for why she had the fog. She had PTSD. She didn`t lay down new memories. That`s really all he did.
FULGINITI: You know, yes, he`s done that, but he`s also really vouched for her basically on the stand, because we`ve got nobody else who`s saying that she`s telling the truth or independent corroboration that she`s saying he was consistent with me. He told me about Travis, potentially, abusing her and told me, obviously, that she did this in self-defense.
But I have to say, at the end of the day, Juan Martinez, I thought dismantled them. He came out swinging. He didn`t knock him out, but he definitely severely bruised him.
PINSKY: And Rossana in Canada, one of our callers has a grade for the prosecution. Go ahead, Rossana.
ROSSANA, CANADA: Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am?
ROSSANA: A+. Go, team Martinez. I tell you, he`s done his homework. He`s exposed the lies, He`s getting an "A," and there`s six people in this house. My family and I are getting along for once because we`re watching the trial. He`s amazing.
PINSKY: Well, something good comes out of the Jodi Arias trial. I`m glad to hear that, at least.
FULGINITI: Is this family time?
ROSSANA: This is family time. And I tell you, he`s just -- Martinez is just -- my dad says it right. He`s like a pit bull. You know, he grabs hold of it and he just doesn`t let go until he`s got that truth.
PINSKY: All right. Let`s go around the horn here with your grade. Mark, your grade?
EIGLARSH: My grade will go up if he varies his tone, his pitch, and doesn`t get lost in the weeds on certain issues. Overall, he improved this week. C+
PINSKY: C+. Janine, what`s your grade for the prosecution?
DRIVER: A-. I`m in the "A" group with Martinez now. A-. The only reason it`s a minus, he`s distracting me a little, telling me information I don`t need. But I love that anger, his tight lip, and that little snap attitude. I`m loving him.
PINSKY: Lauren, your grade?
LAKE: You know what, stop majoring in the minors and focus on the meat. B-.
PINSKY: Kjersten, what is your grade?
PINC: I actually thought he did really good, so I`m, going to give him an A-.
PINSKY: A-, Kjersten, from the young lady from high school. Mary, you have a great?
FULGINITI: You know it, B+.
FULGINITI: Solid B+.
PINSKY: I think I will -- it seemed a B+. There it is. I think I`ll stay with second to B+. I`m not very good at evaluating the attorneys. I`ll look to attorneys to do that. I can evaluate the expert witnesses a little better. Thank you to my panel.
Next up, court ended early today. I don`t know if you guys are aware of this at home, but it ended early today because someone in the courtroom vomited. That`s right. Somebody threw up and our jurors were there, sitting around the emesis, and we`ll hear from them about, there they are, we`ll hear what, in fact happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You just said, knowing that this was a lie, you used it and then concluded that those scores on that PTS confirmed the presence of PTSD, even though you`ve just now told us that this is based on a lie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Perhaps, I should have re-administered that test.
Are you referring to this as an example of her saying something negative about Mr. Alexander or an example of her being assertive, at least, in writing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought we were talking about being assertive. Do you have a problem with your --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I don`t have any more problem than you do, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Time for Drew`s jurors with me, my co-host, Mary Fulginiti, and joining us as our jurors today, Katie Wick, who those of you that watch our show probably know her by now, and Kjersten Pinc, the high school student back with us once again.
So, Katie, I want to start with you, was it a juror that threw up today or was it someone sitting in the courtroom, an observer, and what happened?
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": Well, here`s the thing. I feel so bad -- it was somebody, actually, she was sitting one row behind me, about three chairs down, and I had just been speaking with her, Dr. Drew, five minutes before this happened. I feel horrible for her. And I was just texting her granddaughter, and she said she`s so embarrassed.
But I said, well, tell her she`s not the only one who`s sick of listening to Jodi Arias. So, it`s the same sentiment throughout. It was just an awkward moment. The whole day, Dr. Drew, was awkward, from running through this test and the questions of the PSD exam, to going back in, to a woman getting sick. It was just -- I guess, it`s a full moon, I hear. It`s just incredible.
PINSKY: Well -- I mean, so it was an older woman who threw up? Is she OK? I mean, an older woman that vomits, that`s, sometimes, a serious medical problem.
WICK: No, she was fine, and then five minutes later when we got in, we heard the sound, and we looked around, and she was over, and I was getting concerned. I thought maybe she was having a heart attack. I didn`t know what was going on. And everybody just kind of got up and looked, and they were actually -- the attorneys were heading into chambers with the judge, so everybody sort of froze.
The judge wasn`t in there at the moment, but people got up and they thought, oh, my goodness, what`s going on, and then, they went to recess for the day, because there was issues cleaning it and we were nearing 4:30 anyway.
FULGINITI: Clearly had to clear the courtroom.
FULGINITI: Oh, that`s terrible.
PINSKY: All right. Kjersten, how about you? Any observations from today other than the hyperemesis?
PINC: You know, I just -- it`s very repetitive. All the questions, it`s very, very repetitive. I just -- the jury understands. It`s just unnecessary. It doesn`t -- it`s just not relevant to the case even. It`s not relevant to the killing. Premeditation, this is posttraumatic stress disorder. What does it have to do with premeditation?
PINSKY: Well, Kjersten --
FULGINITI: Perfect point.
PINSKY: Perfect point. Mary was a former defense attorney. She was making this exact point. So, is your feeling, Kjersten, reflective of the juries, do you think?
PINC: I think so. I think they`re smart enough to know that this is just their defense`s way of giving her the best defense they can. And this is, you know, it`s just, unfortunately, it`s not going to be enough for her.
PINSKY: OK. We`ve got a call coming in from Missouri. Pat, you wanted to say something about the prosecution as well?
PAT, MISSOURI: Yes, I did. I want to say that I give Martinez an A+ and I hope if I`m ever in trouble, he`s my prosecutor. But I think that Jodi is a ventriloquist and everyone on her defense team are, unfortunately, the dummies.
PINSKY: You wonder -- you wonder how much she is -- Jodi`s dictating what the defense is doing. I mean, she could be a difficult client. you don`t know.
FULGINITI: No (INAUDIBLE). You know, ultimately, your client dictates, not you. If they want something presented, I mean, you can`t -- you can only talk to them so much if they want it, it`s got to go on.
PINSKY: Any sense of that, ladies, from the courtroom?
WICK: Well, somewhat, Dr. Drew, but there was something that I really wanted to bring up yesterday that I don`t think -- I didn`t hear anybody really talk about it, that I think was a really, really vital part to the case that Juan Martinez brought up was the acute stress and the diagram that the witness made, saying this is when you get into the fog.
And Martinez says, yes but, can one remember -- there`s short-term memory, and today, Jennifer Wilmot went back in and she kind of covered Martinez`s tracks, basically, showing that yesterday, it made it sound like Juan Martinez got this witness to say, yes, it`s possible for someone to come in and out of this acute stress, out of this fog.
So, it`s kind of like Jennifer Wilmot came back today and kind of covered the tracks. And he said, oh, no, no, once you`re in this fog, you`re in this fog. There`s no slipping in and out of it.
PINSKY: Yes. You can come in and out of it, but Jodi is not (ph) coming in and out of it. They`re very clear -- they`re going to create a fog. They`re going to create doubt. That`s what they want to do.
FULGINITI: We have a high school student who actually has cut through the fog and she sees the clarity of it. So, if she`s seeing it, I have to think these 12 jurors are seeing it.
PINSKY: All right. Take a quick break. Back with you, two, after this.
PINSKY: Katie and Kjersten, thank you for your thoughts. But I want Mary to share something with Kjersten because she`s been where you are.
FULGINITI: Kjersten, you know, when I was in high school, I wanted to be a defense attorney as well, and I did become one and then went to the prosecution. And the one thing I learned was when you`re at the prosecution`s side, I could do a lot more good than I could on the defense side, believe it or not, because you have that power.
And if you wanted to cut somebody a break because you believe they deserved it, you could do it. So, that`s my only little piece of advice to you, but your observation was astute and you`ve been great.
PINSKY: All right. Kjersten, so, think about maybe working for the prosecution one day.
FULGINITI: Just for a little bit of time. Just a little bit.
PINSKY: All right. Guys, thank you, again. I want to thank Mary Fulginiti for joining me today and all week. Thank you all for watching. Thank you to all my guests tonight. And, I`ll see you at "HLN After Dark" that starts right now.